[pbleighton]

Has anyone played jump shifts over a major as mini-splinters? If so, what was your experience?. If not, any thought on them?

Peter

[hrothgar]

I used to use mini-splinters
wonderful when they came up
not frequent enough to continue using them
fit jumps seem more useful

I've been debating bringing these back in for MOSCITO
I'm much more conservation opening 4441/5440 shapes than 5431s.
Accordingly, mini-splinters might be the best treatment for opposite a passed hand opening bid. [Ron, any thoughts on this one?]

[DrTodd13]

Once upon a time, I played mini-splinters. As I recall,
I gave them up because I wasn't seeing any
appreciable gains from them. I'd probably have to
say that reverse bergen is a better use for those bids.

Todd

[pbleighton]

Todd-

Bergen I know. What is reverse Bergen?

Peter

[Dan_Neill]

Hi all,
Shortages are invaluable, so you need something for minisplinters. I used to think 'Mathe' in Root's book was archaic, but now I see why it's good.

You must show shortages, so keep those minisplinters. Just take the time to package them more optimally.

1M-
3M+1 = any minimum GF splinter (9-12, say), don't have to ask for location
other DJ's = mild slaminterest+ splinters
3M-2 or so = limit raise (either balanced 10-11 or unbalanced weaker)--> some relay asks for shortage if any

Splinters with wide ranges must involve discussion over whether cues ask for cues or "so how strong was that splinter, anyway". But immediately showing strength is simpler than agreeing on lots of cue-bidding sequences.

If you want micro-splinters (invit to game), more optimal is to play a shortage-ask over a simple raise. Games are easier to accidentally make than slams anyways, so these really weak ones gain less for the memory.

Dan

[inquiry]

I use to play the jumpshift by a passed hand as mini splinter. I have found that fit jumps are more useful by passed hand.

As far as by unpassed hand, I play the jumps as either Bergen, wjo, or fit jumps, varies by partner.

Reverse Bergen is the original version, I think, were 3C is the bigger hand, and 3D is the weaker of the two jumps. I like "regular" bergen since it allows a 3D by opener to invite when the invite IMHO does the most good. I keep jump to 3D very tightly defined.

[luis]

I like the topic :-)

I'm very confused YET about the optimum structure over a 1M opening, I'm going to share my thoutghts in this post and please let me know your comments or opinions.

Assume we play 2/1
My first big concern is the typical 5431 hand.

Case a: You have 3 card support for the major
- I think that with 3 card support the most accepted practice is to bid 2/1 with GF hands. Do you think a mini-splinter or fit-showing bid makes sense with an invitational hand with 3 trumps? Then if the idea is to invite what is best to evaluate opener's hand? A shortage showing bid (mini-splinter) or a suit-showing bid (fit-showing bid)

Case b: You have 4 card support for the major.
- First question, with a game forcing hand what do you do?
a) Bid 2/1
Use a Jacoby-alike 2NT response
c) Bid a fit-showing or mini-splinter bid
- Second question: If you use 2/1 with game-forcing hands what do you use with an invitational hand?
a) A fit-showing bid
A mini-splinter

In my opinion mini-splinters are superior to fit-showing bids for invitational hands, knowing responder shortage is better than knowing his suit if you need to decide whether to play game or not. Do you agree?

It's a very confusing area of bidding where Jacoby, 2/1, Fit-showing bids and Mini-splinters are mixed in a soup....

mmmmm.... I hope we can clarify this mess with this thread .....

[inquiry]

Luis raises an important issue. I do not play a three level fit jump as forcing game. In fact, I specifically deny game forcing values. Why? Because a 2/1 reply works fine.

So the use of three level fit jump is limited to game invite hand when playing fit jump. I generally like four card trump support for this bid, but three to an honor with some shortness is ok. The fit jump serves a couple of useful purposes, including the hand that does not include an appropriate singeleton (not all responding hands are 5431). So, for instance, I will fit jump to the three level in four card suit with good cards in the suit. This is basically my limit raise, showing where my good stuff is hidding.

Now, I suspect that when partenr opens 1S and you hold a hand like....S-x H-Qxx D-Jxx CAJ983 a mini-splinter of 2S might tell partner exactly what he needs to know. On the downside, it allows an easy 2Sx and helps them decide to compete. Worse, partner knows nothing about your five card suit that might help him with a potential opening lead, or decide to compete (or dbl for penalty if he is well stacked in diamonds).

And if you play wild and wooley direct raises, bidding hands without a singleton become a big problem... I would bid 3C also holding...
S-xx H-Axxx D-xx C-KQJx

Now an even more interesting question, if you play all jumps as fit jumps, even to the four level, what is the difference between a fit jump to say 4Clubs and bidding 2C and then raising your partner's major. I haven't found the four level fit jumps to be that useful EXCEPT in competition.

Ben

[keylime]

I like the Romex structure of raises because I get to show every generic hand type through one means or another. I have mini-splinters, limit raises without shortage and with shortage, G/F raises, and preemptive direct raises.

The only headache I had was making the mini-splinter work out (1H - 2S and 1S - 2NT). Otherwise, the steps carried over quite nicely.

[DrTodd13]

Can't we show singleton by inference on many 5431 invitational hands?
Try to show our 3 suits by finally showing our support for pd at the 3
level. If we've bid 3 suits, must be short in the 4th. If pd bids our
singleton suit then we can't show our shape without 4SF. However, in
this case, it is less likely that our singleton is useful for pd.

Will have to think about the 4 trump case using this approach.

Or...could just get rid of bergen 3M and bid 3M invite w/o shortness
and 3C invite w/ shortness.

[keylime]

Let's consider as well the progress of major suit raises through the ages. In the beginning a double was forcing, something that is almost unthinkable these days. Then in the 50's, limit raises became en vogue. Jacoby 2NT followed, then Bergen raises, on the premise that LOTT matters (which to an extent it does, but read my other posts about LOTT).

These days, there are MANY developments with major suit raises. There's Romex, Scanian, Polish, Stenburg, and the list goes on. We should be thankful for the plethora of choices we now have. Sometimes, different is good.

That leads to another point. A proper discussion of what scheme to used, and how to handle interference over a raise is important. One of the things I notice is over a Jacoby 2NT style raise is an opponent preempting. Coping with this is part and parcel of the trade.

Lastly, a talk about when to use a G/F raise in trumps is important. Far too often it seems that players immediately go to this tool when often there is another more logical bid that more accurately describes their hands. An example is a pudding raise, a British term showing values in trumps and one other suit with nothing on the outside. I subscribe to the school of thought that when I use a G/F raise, I'm showing mild slam interest at a minimum.

[pbleighton]

"Or...could just get rid of bergen 3M and bid 3M invite w/o shortness
and 3C invite w/ shortness. "

Or use 1S/3C and 1H/2S as an invitation with shortness and 1S/3D and 1H/3C for without and 1S/3H and 1H/3D for the constructive raise.

[hrothgar]

I think that Ben hit the nail right on the head when he prefaced his commentary by stating that he used fit-showing jumps to explore for game. I think that many of the postings in this discussion are putting the cart before the horse and discussing detailed implementations before agreeing on basic principles. Todd touches on this point when he explains that showing a three card fragment implies shortness in the 4th suit.

Accordingly, I suggest the following:

(1) Define the strength of your major suit opening bids:
(2) Identify the goals for your constructive response structure. Is your primary goal:

(a) Accurately exploring for the best game/slam
( Accurate part score bidding
© Maximizing the pressure you place on the opponents
(d) Avoiding bidding misunderstandings

Once you have established these criteria you can start worrying about details like whether the Romex major suit raise structure is appropriate or is it worthwhile to include a mini-splinter in your bidding arsenal.

[the hog]

I used to use mini-splinters wonderful when they came up
not frequent enough to continue using them fit jumps seem more useful

I've been debating bringing these back in for MOSCITO
I'm much more conservation opening 4441/5440 shapes than 5431s.
Accordingly, mini-splinters might be the best treatment for opposite a passed hand opening bid. [Ron, any thoughts on this one?]

Interestingly enough when I first started serious system development many years ago, I used to think that splinters / mini splinters were better than sliced bread. (Austn expression denoting great approval!)
Since then my preferences have changed somewhat, basically because I agree with Richard's first comment. Splinters are great WHEN they come up, but to be honest I don't think they come up all that often. When you do have a 4441, you can often splinter even if you don't play splinters due to the fact that next hand overcalls in your short suit eg
1S (2D) 4D

I have come to the conclusion that fit showing jumps are far more valuable; it may be my imagination but they seem to occur more frequently. (Would someone like to run a simulation on this?)
When a fsj occurs you have knowledge as to how high to bid in competitive situations and you can guage the slam potential of a hand.

Another point is that I have a major prejudice against 4441 hands. They are often difficult to handle and are overrated for slam purposes as you have no long suit to develop as a source of tricks.

Having said all of the above, I am currently playing full blown splinters and mini splinters - 1H 3D and 1S 3H show any splinter with 10-12; jumps to the 4 level are 13+ splinters. Why? My ftf partner likes them. Jumps by passed hands are fsj.

Over a los such as Moscito, I would not give up fsj in favour of splinters - either by a passed or an unpassed hand. Some Moscito players use jumps in the minors to show pre emptive hands, but as responder will frequently have 3 card support for opener, these are also on the rarer side.

I believe the best structure over Moscito is that jumps at the 3 level are fsjs. Jumps to the 4 level splinters. Even over a 2/1 structure I prefer the fsb to a splinter. (Note this is especially true if you have a 5431 shape where the 5 card suit is of decent quality. Surely it is far more important to show a source of tricks, (either by bidding a 2/1 or a fsj if weaker), rather than a singleton. Anyway the s/t can frequently be shown later in the auction anyway

While we are on this topic, Ron Klinger has the very strong view that splinters should not be natural. The reason is that it is too easy for the opps to X the splinter bid and find a good sac. rdk plays that 4 level splinters show the suit below the singleton. With a rockcrusher opener can then bid the singleton as some kind of control ask or rkcb or whatever you like.

[keylime]

Most experts it seems here in the U.S. use splinters to define game-going hands but the inability to go directly to slam. Is this true world-wide or is it a regional entity?

[the hog]

Is this true world-wide or is it a regional entity?

It is here but I can't really comment for other places. Some play splinters as 13+ and then take another bid with a strong hand. It does seem to be the weaker players who use this approach though.

[Cascade]

Quote

Has anyone played jump shifts over a major as mini-splinters? If so, what was your experience?. If not, any thought on them?

Peter

I play mini-splinters over 1H/S.

I think they are effective in finding a game. There are some problems showing when you have a side five-card suit (source of tricks) so we reserve the right to make a simple 2/1 with (mildly) slammish hands.

Over the splinters we use a relay to show controls (discounted - i.e don't count the King of the short suit) and range and other bids show a singleton in opener's hand.

So in addition to being effective in enabling us to bid close game contracts I find it a very effective and efficient slam bidding structure - we are often showing queens at the 4-level.

e.g.

1S 3C singleton
3D relay
3NT 3 controls and GF
4C where are your queens?
...

while

1S 3C
3H shows a singleton heart

...

Wayne Burrows
Cascade on BBO

[mishovnbg]

Quote

Let's consider as well the progress of major suit raises through the ages. In the beginning a double was forcing, something that is almost unthinkable these days. Then in the 50's, limit raises became en vogue. Jacoby 2NT followed, then Bergen raises, on the premise that LOTT matters (which to an extent it does, but read my other posts about LOTT).

These days, there are MANY developments with major suit raises. There's Romex, Scanian, Polish, Stenburg, and the list goes on. We should be thankful for the plethora of choices we now have. Sometimes, different is good.

That leads to another point. A proper discussion of what scheme to used, and how to handle interference over a raise is important. One of the things I notice is over a Jacoby 2NT style raise is an opponent preempting. Coping with this is part and parcel of the trade.

Lastly, a talk about when to use a G/F raise in trumps is important. Far too often it seems that players immediately go to this tool when often there is another more logical bid that more accurately describes their hands. An example is a pudding raise, a British term showing values in trumps and one other suit with nothing on the outside. I subscribe to the school of thought that when I use a G/F raise, I'm showing mild slam interest at a minimum.

And 21 century major raises are:
1. DONT SHOW any distribution before you need it!
2. Raise directly with any fit and strength!

No mini splinters, no fit jumps, no 3/4/5 cards fit showing bids - nothing that can be usefull information for opps!
What about "science" bidding? You can do it later IF NEED! If your partner bidded game over your "unclear" raise you will be happy, because dont show your singleton (for trump lead) or good suit (for side suit lead). If he cant bid directly game, THEN is time for tries.
Misho

[pbleighton]

Misho -

Your comments are interesting as always. Two questions:
1) What do you use jump shifts (weak?) and double jump shifts (what if not splinters?) for?
2) You write:
"If your partner bidded game over your "unclear" raise you will be happy, because dont show your singleton (for trump lead) or good suit (for side suit lead). If he cant bid directly game, THEN is time for tries. "

Would you give us an example auction please?

Peter

[mishovnbg]

Hi Peter!
These principles are not my invention, I just use them...
1. Jump shifts are invitational for game (i personally play it by transfers and inv for game or for slam). Why?
- Sign offs are VERY rare ( in BBO I play this way ) - for 2 years didnt happen while i watched or played!!! If even you bid suscsessful - opps normally balancing... One of principles of new century bidding - dont make system based on sign offs.
- Invitation through 2/1 or 1NT leave possibility for opps to bid at 2 level for lead directing or for sacrifice.
- Double jump shifts over major opening are splinters, limited raise to 4 with singleton/void (I play it also by transfers to dont give opps easy double). Next principle about splinters is: Splinter must be limited bid. Voids with enough support are so rare, that you no need to waste another bids. If I continue after negative return in suit, i show void, but still with same limited hand. What about information for opps? It is not so dangerous with slam try - you have normally trick more... And you partner will not show additional information with cue bids, if he not like to play slam, because your splinter is limited.
- Triple jump shifts over major opening are expell RKCB with void
- Double and more jump shifts over minor must be limited and natural - no need splinters here, they are very, very rare... (I play them also by transfers and inv for game or for slam).

2. I use 2 way raises at 2 level, like top italians:
1HE-?
2DI: 8-12hcp, 2.5-3.5 cover cards, 3(4) fit
2HE: preempt
2NT: GF raise
3HE: preempt
3NT,4CL,4DI: limited transfer splinters
4HE: preempt

Note: After 2DI/2HE partner can continue with game try of course, but only if cant bid directly game (2 times more often than normal bidding, because 2 way raises). Examples in not vul:
1HE-?
xxx,xxxx,x,xxxxx; xx,Axx,xxxx,xxxx; = 2HE
xxx,Axxx,x,xxxxx = 3HE
xx,Axx,Kxxx,xxxx = 2DI
xxx,Axxx,x,Kxxxx = 4HE
xx,Axx,Kxxx,Kxxx = 2DI
Kxx,Axxx,x,Kxxxx = splinter
Kx,Axx,Kxxx,Kxxx; Kxx,Axxx,x,AKxxx = 2NT GF raise


Misho