[scoob]

let's say someone put a gun to your head and forced you to play your 2NT opening to show a 4441 hand.

what point range would you assign to the open?

any other stipulations about the hand's value that you would require?

thanks

[helene_t]

I would require 33 HCPs which is the least frequent range possible (34 is even less frequent but with 34 HCPs you just open 7NT so that doesn't count).

[Chamaco]

scoob, on May 26 2005, 12:25 PM, said:

let's say someone put a gun to your head and forced you to play your 2NT opening to show a 4441 hand.

what point range would you assign to the open?

any other stipulations about the hand's value that you would require?

thanks

To me, it seems the only plausible use would be to remove 4441 from strong 2C openers, so, say, 20+ or so hcp

But then why not using Multi 2D for that ?
I suppose that in places where Multi is forbidden, such a weird 2NT opener would also not be welcomed....

[Free]

why not take 30+? If you have an ace you can bid 7NT, isn't it a cool system?

I'd rather go for 18+HCP in the suits, HCP in the stiff don't count.

[hrothgar]

scoob, on May 26 2005, 03:25 PM, said:

let's say someone put a gun to your head and forced you to play your 2NT opening to show a 4441 hand.

what point range would you assign to the open?

any other stipulations about the hand's value that you would require?

thanks

I think that I'd prefer said opening to show 38-40 HCP...

With this said and done, I've occasionally toyed with the idea of a 3♣ opening showing a 4441 or 5440 hand with 4+ clubs and 6-10 HCP

[luis]

I think 8-11 should be ok, it will present many problems to the opps and pd should usually know what to do. 2NT is a preempt, it removes 2 complete levels of bidding so lets use it as a preempt and not to show strong hands, when you have half the deck there's no need to preempt pd.
I don't need a gun pointing at my head, I think I've played a lot of openings crazier than this one.

[Echognome]

This article from Jeff Goldsmith says it all:

http://www.gg.caltec...ml/rubicon.html

[scoob]

Echognome, on May 26 2005, 10:56 AM, said:

This article from Jeff Goldsmith says it all:

http://www.gg.caltec...ml/rubicon.html

good read, thank you

[Antoine Fourrière]

I wouldn't use a three-suiter opening as a pure preempt because I don't object to my opponents playing the hand with bad splits. Anyway, minimum opening bids (Precision 2♣, Flannery, Roman 2M, Fantunes two-bids...) still have preemptive value.

I would rather play a three-suiter 2N opening to get rid of an infrequent, though not extremely rare, problem hand within a given system, so it probably would show a minimum opening bid with a specified shortness (I'm thinking to the 4=4=1=4 or 4=4=0=5 type in Precision, but a 3♣ opening would run less risk of a double when partner is weak without a fit) or a strongish opening with two possible shortnesses or a very strong hand with any shortness.
Still, the lowest zone/ known shortness type is probably the only one which doesn't require the gun to be loaded.

With a lower opening, the hand type should be more frequent. For some British pairs, 2♥ showed 11-14 HCP with a three-suiter with hearts. I have no idea how it fared (although in case they don't play it any more, that could be a hint). Nevertheless, if you play Precision with a multi 2♦, it might be a reasonable option since 1♦ is not a thing of beauty either.

[inquiry]

i already do this by proxy. I open 2♣ with three suiters and then REBID 2NT over whatever partner bids to show the three suiter (I inlcude 5440 hands).

A strong three suiter for this has a minimum of 5 controls (aces = 2, King =1), a maximum of five losers (or of course less), and a minimum HCP use to be 16, but I have found the occassionaly 15 hcp hand that I have opened 2♣ and rebid 2NT.

To read about this treatment, which I stole from Chris Ryal, read the following links.

4441 and 5440 hands in forcing 2C.....

More on 4441 or 4450 hands and 2C

Ben

[luke warm]

Jlall, on May 26 2005, 07:48 AM, said:

22+ but only because you said a gun was to my head, I might instead just let them kill me.

roflmao

[slothy]

i used to play 2NT as a 5-5 weak minor 2-suiter as part of a Lucas style bidding structure. I found that this was of more advantage to opps in terms of defending the hand compared to any preemptive qualities it had, hand for hand. On the rare occasion it paid off but more often than not allowed declarer to find the right line vs a thiny bid game. Naturally that was soon scribbled out of the convention card.

The same applies, IMO, to a 2NT opener where you are defining hands within such a narrow distribution of possible suit permutations. IT no doubt gives the defenders the opportunity to defend , using better judgement, a contract you would most likely have reached using more conventional means. The hand is yours especially if p has a good hand and most likely you can get your hand across anyway, describing your shape along the way.

if you ARE strong and the opps preempt in the suit you are short in, i feel it would be more important to concentrate on how to react to that rather than devising an adjunct to a system that on more hands than not facilitate the defence rather than your partnership.