[inquiry]

There are all kinds of doubles.

Takeout doubles,
Penalty doubles,
Negative doubles,
Card showing doubles (Cooperative Doubles),
Maximal doubles,
Lead directing doubles,
Support doubles,
Responsive doubles
Competitive doubles
Rosenkrantz doubles,
etc.

This thread is being started as a point to discuss the various meanings of doubles. So let's start with the simpliest to understand of all. A penalty double. It seems from this extensive, but far from complete list, that bridge players might not play penalty doubles anymore, but of course this isn't true. Some doubles are clearly for penalty. An easy example is after you have made a penalty pass of a "takeout" double and they then run to a new suit.

You and your partner need to come up with your own rules for what is and what is not a penatly double. But a pressing question becomes, is it ever possible to pull your partner's penalty double, and if so, what do you need to do so. The answer is obviously yes, it is possible to pull your partners penalty double. Let's look at a simple example where the double is a) for penatly, and your pulling the double has special meaning.

You vul, IMPS
You Them Partner Them
1H 3C 4C 5C
Pass Pass DBL Pass
5D

Ok. Here 4C was a game forcing cue-bid, so your pass over 5C was forcing. Partner's double of 5C was penalty. Now you pull the double. This shows a better offensive hand than if you bid directly over 5C, and in fact, your 5D bid shows a better hand than if you bid 5D immediately.

The pass and then pull of the "penalty double" show a strong slam, you might play an immediate 5D is a slam try without a club control, and the pass and then pull to 5D is a slam try with controls in both diamonds and clubs.

So here, you pull your partner's "penalty" double because you have a great offensive hand and are trying for more. In reality, your partner's double in this auction isn't REALLY penalty...you forced him to bid or pass. All his double said was that his hand was more defensive than offensive for the given bidding (he had to pass or bid when you passed). But this is sort of the same general rule you should use for pulling your partners REAL penalty double.

To pull your partner's real world penalty doubles, you need to have a MUCH BETTER offensive and distributional hand than partner could expect. If you opened 1NT or bid natural NT at anytime, you can not pull. If you have limited your hand with a simple rebid, you can not pull. At imps, be particularily leary of pulling your penalty double. But lets say you hold this hand....

S-KQJTx H-void D-KQJT52 C-Q2

And assume you opened a tame 1D and they overcall 4H which partner doubles (you are playing this as penalty, btw I don't play 4HX on this auction as penatly, but for the sake of arguement assume you do). Clearly, I would rebid 4S on this hand. Maybe this is extreme, but you need something like this to pull real world penatly doubles. Exceptional offense hand with good distribution and little defense (high offensive to defensive ratio).

Ben

[pbleighton]

"If you opened 1NT or bid natural NT at anytime, you can not pull. If you have limited your hand with a simple rebid, you can not pull."

Does this mean that you cannot pull after an 11-15 limited Precision opening?

Related question: Would you open the hand you cited
S-KQJTx H-void D-KQJT52 C-Q2
1C or 1D in Precision? Make the CQ the K and it's 1C, but...

[luis]

Excellent start Ben,

Continuing your comments about penalty doubles I want to add some tips:

- When pd makes a penalty double in a competitive auction where both sides have a fit you are allowed to pull the double if you have a void in their suit, pd usually expects you to have 1 trump.

- In the same way when pd pulls your penalty double in a competitive auction you should expect him to have a void in the opps suit or unexpected trump length.

- In missfit situations doubles are always for penalties. And never lead a trump vs a missfit even if they end up in a doubled partscore.

- Doubles of NT bids are always for penalties. Exception after 1M-1NT or 1m-1NT where double is usually a takeour double of the opener suit.

- Double of a bid that shows a two suiter (example unusual NT) shows a hand that has 1 or 2 penalty doubles against their suits, pd is invited to cooperate doubling their suits if he has values in the suit or passing to see if you can double for penalties.

- Don't double a partscore if you don't have a good trump stack when the opps are likely to hold a two suiter with a fit in one of the suits, two suiters usually produce a higher number of tricks than the expected number for the combined HCP holding.

- When pd makes a penalty double at a low level lead a trump (another reason to pull the dbl with a void). If they are in a missfit this tip is cancelled.

- A hand that passes after an overcall and then bids something unexpected usually shows an original penalty pass of the overcalled suit.

- Doubles of artificial non-suit bids are usually bid to show the suit being bid by the opps so they are in principle penalty doubles but most likely lead-directing, expect pd to have 4 cards in the suit being doubled not 5 to make a competitive decision.

[inquiry]

Quote

"If you opened 1NT or bid natural NT at anytime, you can not pull. If you have limited your hand with a simple rebid, you can not pull."

Does this mean that you cannot pull after an 11-15 limited Precision opening?

Related question: Would you open the hand you cited
S-KQJTx  H-void D-KQJT52 C-Q2
1C or 1D in Precision? Make the CQ the K and it's 1C, but...

First question. I do not play penatly doubles after opening a weak notrump (what!!!). I play "takeout doubles". So if our bidding went,

Me Them Pard
1N 2D X

I take that as bid partner. If I happened to hold four good diamonds, of course, I might very well pass. However, if I did play this double as penatly, there would not be a hand I would open 1NT and then pull the double on. I simply can not have a big enough distributional surprise or offensive hand to surprise partner with. For the "negative" double here, I recommend chapter four in Robson Segal's book on competitive bidding.

For the second hand, I would open this hand 1D even playing precision because a) you expect a lot of bidding and you wnat to be able to get your suits in, and you quick trick total is very low. How would you like to hear an auction like the following where you haven't shown either of your suits...

1C-4H-DBL-PASS or

1C-4H-PASS-PASS
?


Ben

[inquiry]

Ok.. Here is another Double to consider, the "maximal double"... compare the following auctions.

1)
You LHO Pard RHO
1S 2D 2S 3D
DBL

2)
You LHO Pard RHO
1S 2D 2S 3D
3H

3)
You LHO Pard RHO
1S 2D 2S 3D
3S

4)
You LHO Pard RHO
1S 2H 2S 3H
3S

5)
You LHO Pard RHO
1S 2H 2S 3H
DBL

In auction 1-3, over 3D opener has four options. He can pass (we will ignore pass in all these cases), dbl, bid 3S, or bid 3H. Due to the law of total tricks, modern bridge theory calls on opener to bid 3S on a lot of hands with no game interest at all. Thus, 3S becomes "competitive", just trying to make the lawful bid. Opener REALLY does not want responder bidding game even when he holds a maximum. Since there is "room" between 3D and 3S (the 3H slot), a 3H bid is pressed into service as an invitational bid. Responder is invited to bid 3S or 4S depending upon his values, with a maximum, responder bids game. So that leaves DOUBLE as penatly oriented. (In general, doubles after you have found a fit...and if your side preempts or uses a transfer over 1NT, you are assumed to have found a fit are for penatly.).

Auction 4 and 5 show a problem with the above scheme. If and immediate 3S bid is just "competitive", how do you invite game (since no inbetween bid is available)? The answer is that the "penatly" double is replaced with a "maximal double" which tells partner to bid game with a "maximal raise" to 2S. Of course, if your parnter has a defensive hand, he can choose to pass the maximal double, but in general you expect him to bid 3S or 4S over the double. The maximal double is only used in situations like above where there is no room between the opponents bid and 3 of your suit, because if you have room try for game below three of your agreed suit, double can be reserved for penalty.

Once you start bidding according to the LAW of TOTAL TRICKS, you will find this maximal double very useful.

Ben

[inquiry]

I hate responding to my own post, but what the heck: it is time to discuss another double... the "support double." Maybe someone else would like to take a stab at describing snapdragon doubles or lightner doubles (or ohters)?

The law of total tricks dictates that you compete the level of your fit (there are adjustments, I don't want to discuss in this thread to this law). Thus, in a competitive auction, you are in general "protected" by the law if you compete to the two level on an 8 card fit, and to the three level if you have a nine card fit. The problem is, if you are a "LAWFUL BIDDER", is you have to try to determine your fit so you can decide how high to bid.

Here is the problem auction that Support doubles (and redoubles) try to solve.

Pard RHO You LHO
1D Pass 1S 2H
2S 3H ?

If you have to decide what to do. If you have five spades and your partner has 4S, the law suggest bidding on (9 card fit, equals three level). If your partner has 3 card support, then you have only an 8 card fit and maybe letting them play is a better idea.

How can you decide how many trumps your partner has for his raise to the two level?

This is where support double and redouble come in. If your RHO bids below two of your partners suit (or doubles), a direct raise to 2 of your partners suit shows 4 card support, while a double of their bid shows exactly three card support (or a redouble if you RHO made a take out double).

So on the auction above, your partner would have 4 card spade support, so when you hold five spades you should strongly consider bidding 3Spades. And on an auction like this....

Pard RHO You LHO
1D Pass 1S 2H
DBL(*)3H ? DBL=support.

You know your partner has only 3 card spade support.



trying to determine the level

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben, i will describe the Optional dbl (OD), as i play it with all my regular partners.
OD meaning is: partner i have hcp to play at reached level of bidding, but havent any other better bid. OD DONT PROMISSE 4+ cards in unbid major. I use other bids for take out and support dbls, similar to old Fishbein. Reason is unlike fanatics of LTTC i prefer to can to dbl opps sometimes, if we have more hcp than they and we havent other contract, crazy pre-empts are welcome .

Typical crash of take out dbl from real MP tournament. My p was experienced tournament player, but not my regular partner and we played with take out dbl.

We - vul, opps - not, i open

Me Partner
Kxx Axx
AQxx Kx
xxx xxx
Axx KQJxx

Bids:
1CL-(3DI)-dbl-pass,
3HE-pass-5CL-pass,
pass-pass

Result: -1, we miss game and it was 3DI with dbl, lol


Examples:

1DI-(1SP)-dbl: xxx-Axx-Kxx-Qxxx

1CL-p-1SP-(2HE)-dbl: x-Qxx-AKxxx-AQxx

Misho

[Laird]

Hello Everyone

Thank you for what seems an inspired and informative posting, however a point that is causing me some confusion is....

"If you opened 1NT or bid natural NT at anytime, you can not pull. If you have limited your hand with a simple rebid, you can not pull."
pbleighton

What does "you cannot pull " mean...unfamiliar term for me sorry.

John

[inquiry]

Quote

Hello Everyone

Thank you for what seems an inspired and informative posting, however a point that is causing me some confusion is....

"If you opened 1NT or bid natural NT at anytime, you can not pull. If you have limited your hand with a simple rebid, you can not pull."
pbleighton

What does "you cannot pull " mean...unfamiliar term for me sorry.

John

Hi John,

Pull means if your partner makes a penatly double (that you play as a penalty double), and you have limited your hands count and distribution by bidding a natural NT, you are not allowed to bid over your partner's penalty double. However, for me, as I said earlier, I play my double on these auctions as "negative". Opener can leave in, or pull since they are not "penalty".

[inquiry]

Misho described in Reply #6 a double he likes that he calls "optional double". This is similar if not identical to the concept of a "cooperative double", except his strategy it to take this optional double to the extremes, replacing even the "standard" negative doubles with it.

Since he raised this issue, let's consider the normal "cooperative" and "optional" double.

In the classic senses, an optional double was used against opening preempts above a certain level. Say they opened 3S and you doubled. It generally showed a balanced hand, and sufficient strength to have a shot at defeating their contract... but obviously, since balanced, modest support for all balanced suit. The partner of the preempter had the option of leaving the double in, or with distribution, pulling it.

A typical auction might be:
Them You
3S DBL (*optional).. S-AJ9 H-AK2 D-QT53 C-Kxx

Different partnerships kick optional doubles in at different levels. Some, for instance play takeout double through 3S, and optional or penalty doubles above that. Some play 4H-X as takeout while 4S-X is optional.

When your partnership has been sharing information, some doubles are neither penatly or takeout. These are generally termed cooperative double or perhaps card-showing doubles. That is this double show cards" and express to parnter that "we need to do something", and ask him to make the right bid (pass for penatly, or bid). The lower the level, the more likely you might want to play a cooperative double, if they bid to a high level, you can often make a forcing pass, or have enough to assure a set an make a penalty double. So partnerships usually use these doubles at the two level or the two and three level. For instance...consider this auction....

Pard RHO You LHO
1D Pass Pass DBL
1S Pass Pass 2C
DBL

What can your partner's double be? Do you really think after opening 1D and rebidding 1S he can have a club stack so this is clearly penalty? Depending upon your partnershiop style, this could show something like 4-3-6-0 for takeout, or it could b a cooperative double.

How about this auction?
Pard RHO You LHO
1D 1S DBL Pass
2H Pass Pass 2S
Pass Pass DBL

Your second double can not be a spade stack, or you would not have made a negative double. Your first double already showed hearts, so you have already found your fit. Here your double is just card showing, suggesting a generally balanced hand and fair defensive stregnth for the auction to date You expect your partner to make the right decision.

NOTE: A lot of the possible doubles being discussed in this thread can be played at the same time, but playing some obviously exlude the use of others. Misho's optional double as he described it in reply 6 means that "normal" negative doubles can not be used. The upside to his method is it allows low level doubles when both partners are relatively balanced. This might work well against some of the very aggressive overcall styles common today. The you have to weigh this against the downside. For instance, if you use a fishbein type takeout bid after an overcall instead of a negative double or support double, you lose the ability of partner to make a penalty pass or the ability to bid the fishbein suit (or notrump naturally if you use that artificially). Thus maybe we should also consider which of these double can and should be logically played together.

[mishovnbg]

Hi all beginner/intermediate players .
When you play some system ( competitive bidding, dbls in this case are also system ) you must answer for some common questions.
1. How often my most common bids ( dbls+cheapest bids in any suit ) happen? Is clear that "classic" take out dbl with shortness in opps suit are much more rare than balanced or semi balanced hands for optional dbl.
2. Is type of my bids adequate to shape I shown? For example will you open pre-empt with 4 cards at 4 level? No? I did it and even win the top, but it was not Bridge in my opinion, perhaps roulette .
Showing general type of your hand is more important than any other it characteristics, if you like to include your partner in battle and play with him partnership Bridge. Take out dbl cant give him this chance, because it can be made with or without wild distribution, optional dbl - can!
3. Penalty dbl to opps cases:
3.1. Penalty pass - both ways use trap pass here.
3.2. Take out dbl and penalty pass from responder. Optional dbl lose it, but it is rare option and worse position - before declarer.
3.3. Cooperative penalty - optional dbl catch it, unlike take out dbl and this is much more often and better case than 3.2.
4. Why most of players use take out dbl? Several reasons here:
4.1. Easy to play - no need to make decisions between penalty of opps and own contract. But also dont give any chance to reach it ;D.
4.2. Defense is rare one of the strongest skill of players. May be better to improve it?
4.3. Following the primitive way of LTTC is easiest way to bid, but lottery too. Complex LTTC is better, but only very few of players use it at table - be fair Ben 8).
5. Are you lose useful bid for take out dbl? Yes, of course, there is no such thing like free supper ;D. Right question is: what you lose/win using take out dbl vs. optional dbl? Answers are:
5.1. When you use take out dbl you lose way to penalty crazy pre-empts/raises based on LTTC and win one important side bid in auction. By the way I also use in BBO same unusual bids, because know most of opps play with take out dbl ;D.
5.2. When you use optional dbl you lose one of side important bids and win way to penalty same crazy bids like unusual pre-empts, raises, bluffs...

Welcome to ask me ( private or in forum ) friends, I suppose you are not familiar with same way of bidding.

Misho

[inquiry]

Quote

Misho's quotes I will discuss will be in YELLOW BOLD below

4.3. Following the primitive way of LTTC is easiest way to bid, but lottery too. Complex LTTC is better, but only very few of players use it at table - be fair Ben .

What Misho is referring too here as LTTC is the "LAW OF TOTAL TRICKS". I actually prefer the abbrevation LOTT (Law of total tricks) since LTTC is accepted abbrevation for a wonderful convention know as Last Train to Clarksville.

He divided LOTT (his LTTC) into two groups... the primative way and the complex way, and notes that most people do not bid LOTT the complex way. In fact, I suspect that many beginners and novices and a few intermediates have never heard of LOTT, and as Misho noted, few players apply the necessary corrections to improve some of the deficiencies in simple LOTT calculations.

5.1. When you use take out dbl you lose way to penalty crazy pre-empts/raises based on LTTC and win one important side bid in auction. By the way I also use in BBO same unusual bids, because know most of opps play with take out dbl

Misho's two sides to the same coin also cuts the other way. First, he says that playing takeout doubles you LOSE the opportunity to penalize crazy bids by the opponents. This is not necessarily true. IF you make a take out double, your partner, who knows you made a take out double can make a penatly pass. Also, playing takeout doubles, when you are STACKED in the opponents suit, you can pass with the hope (expectation?) that your parnter will be short in their suit, and will reopen with a takeout double which you will pass. So indeed, you don't lose out on at least all chance to penalize the opponents. However, playing optional doubles with lowest free bid as takeout you can lose out. On hands where your partner would make a penalty pass of your takeout double, you have already saved your "crazy" opponents by bidding rather than doubling as a general takeout.

Likewise if you have a real, honest to goodness penalty double, you a) can not double, as surely your partner will not expect that hand, and thus not balance, and if you pass, you parnter is much less likely to balance back in, since you didn't make a optional double or a takeout minimum free bid...you are much more likely to have nothing than in standard.

Now, it is clear that optional doubles are useful things. If you play againt ekren or freeling 2 bids, maybe you should use them. Misho has clearly had good results using them. But I prefer to play most all of my doubles as Takeout, with a few notable exceptions...where maximal, cooperative, penalty, support, lightner, and Rosenkrantz (and other lead directing doubles) and just have to be used.

Ben

[pbleighton]

This seems like an appropriate thread for this one:

Assume that after a penalty double of 1NT, the opener's partner runs to a suit. If the doubler doubles again, is it for penalty or takeout (or optional)? Assume doubler's partner is silent.

Do the following matter:
1) NT range
2) Vulnerability
3) Whether it is a suit takeout or a preference by the 1NT bidder based on his partner doing a DONT style (or something else) runout sequence?

Peter

[the hog]

This depends on partnership agreement, Peter.

Pd and I have the agreement that our first 2 Xs are for takeout and the third one is penalties, so:

(1NT) X (2C) P
(P) X = takeout

(1NT) X (2C) X = t/o

(1NT) X (2C) X
(2D) X = penalties

We use this structure over out takeout Xs of suits as well, so we picked up this one on Monday.

(1D) X (1S) X
(2D) 2H (3D) P
(P) X = penalties

I held AJx KTxx AQxx xx = +800

Like Ben mentioned in his post, I should point out that the above is not standard treatment, esp after X a NT - most would play that the 2nd X is penalties.

[hrothgar]

Here is my preference
[Take this with a grain of salt, since I don't like Penalty Doubles of NT openings]

With this said and done

Assume the auction

(1N) - X - (2X) - P
P - ???

I think that the second double should be optional, but suggests taking it out

[inquiry]

Quote

This seems like an appropriate thread for this one:

Assume that after a penalty double of 1NT, the opener's partner runs to a suit. If the doubler doubles again, is it for penalty or takeout (or optional)? Assume doubler's partner is silent.

Do the following matter:
1) NT range
2) Vulnerability
3) Whether it is a suit takeout or a preference by the 1NT bidder based on his partner doing a DONT style (or something else) runout sequence?

Peter

A frequent treatment is that after a penalty pass of a penalty double, or after a penatly pass of a takeout double, all subsequent doubles are for penalty.

Since Ron gave you the third double rule, here my general rule about doubles. In general, my doubles are for takeout until.... we have found a fit. We are assumed ot have a fit, if either of us preempts, if we open 1NT and partner uses a transfer, after a snapdragon double, after any fit showing bid. I don't worry too much about the level with respect to the meaning for my double.

Ben

[flytoox]

I met this hand yesterday and wonder if this is an example worth to discuss, which i think is sth like delayed neg dbl, but not very sure.
Sitting south, I have:
S: KTXX
H: J9XX
D: JXXX
C: X

playing 2/1, none vul, Pd opened 1c, the auction goes:
W N E S
1C 1D PASS
1N 2C PASS PASS
2D PASS PASS ?

I finally choosed to pass, pd's hand is:

S: AQXX
H: KX
D: X
C: AJT9XX

I thought about dbl, but worried pd may take it as penalty. IS dbl in my seat in this situation penalty or neg dbl?

[Free]

Quote

I met this hand yesterday and wonder if this is an example worth to discuss, which i think is sth like delayed neg dbl, but not very sure.
Sitting south, I have:
S: KTXX
H: J9XX
D: JXXX
C: X

playing 2/1, none vul, Pd opened 1c, the auction goes:
W N E S
1C 1D PASS
1N 2C PASS PASS
2D PASS PASS ?

I finally choosed to pass, pd's hand is:

S: AQXX
H: KX
D: X
C: AJT9XX

I thought about dbl, but worried pd may take it as penalty. IS dbl in my seat in this situation penalty or neg dbl?

your first pass should be a Dbl. It shows at least one 4-card in a major (you have both). And since you didn't double after 1D, it could be possible that your partner passes if you double 2D. On the other hand, he should smell there's something wrong because if you can double 2D for penalty, you guys should allmost make 3NT...

[flytoox]

DOnt think i have enough for dbl 1d at first round, i have only 5 hcp, and two j are very likely useless.

[Free]

The important thing is that you have 4-4 in majors! If partner is minimal, then no game is possible but you might be able to defend in 2M. Next to that, you have a singleton (and partner probably to because you have a 4 card D) so I don't think you have nothing in your hand. Ok, diamond J is probably worthless, but heart J9 could be something and you have the 10 of spades to.

I just double after 1C - 1D - ? because whatever major my partner bids I'll support to 2M, if he rebids his clubs I'll pass. I have an agreement with my partner that a negative double can be with 0 HCP, but then I need all unbid majors. P won't jump to 4M