[pork rind]

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this hand was posted on another forum and the bidder bid 2d over 1d as michaels. prob everyone know that michaels is better for 6-12 and 16 and up maybe, but in kibbing i see it used all the time by great players. what do you think????

[whereagles]

There are two schools of thought on this matter:

1) Bid michaels whenever you have the shape and half decent suits.
2) Bid michaels only if weak (6-11) or strong (15+).

Both strategies have their pros and cons. Which one you use is the sort of thing you agree with pard.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Feb 23 2005, 01:50 PM, said:

There are two schools of thought on this matter:

1) Bid michaels whenever you have the shape and half decent suits.
2) Bid michaels only if weak (6-11) or strong (15+).

Both strategies have their pros and cons. Which one you use is the sort of thing you agree with pard.

I think the posted hand is the demonstration that 2 suiters should be given in terms of LOSERS (or playing tricks if you prefer), rather than hcp.

For example, I like to play 2 suiters as either weak or strong, but rather than defining them in terms of 6-11 vs 15+ I mucy rather prefer to define them:

weak = at least 6-6.5 losers (typical holding = KQxxx-QJxxx-xx-x but may be weaker)
strong = at most 4-4.5 losers (typical holding =AKJxx-AKxxx-xx-x but may be stronger)

5-5.5 losers hand type (say KQxxx-AQTxx-xx-x) will bid naturally the 2 suits.

The hand posted by Pork Rind is

♠ AJ109x
♥ AJ10xxx
♦ x
♣ x

This hand is borderline.
It is worth between or less 4.5 and 5 losers (AJT is about 1.25 losers, especially if we have the 9): in such a close case, I'd use the 2 suiter bid (Michaels or whatever you use) because it delivers immediately my shape, rather than risking to bid one suit and either being passed out in misfit (when the second suit would be a great fit) OR being preempted losing the second suit.

[inquiry]

pork rind, on Feb 23 2005, 09:00 AM, said:

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this hand was posted on another forum and the bidder bid 2d over 1d as michaels. prob everyone know that michaels is better for 6-12 and 16 and up maybe, but in kibbing i see it used all the time by great players. what do you think????

The rules, use two suited bids with strong or weak hands, but not intermediate hands, is good as far as it goes. But there are other circumstances to consider.

1) IS partnter a passed hand? I am more likely to include intermediate hands in the mix if he is a passed hand. I want to find our FIT now....

2) Are we vulnerable and opponents are not? This removes the weak hands from the mix, so I am more likely to have a lower quality intermediate hand for the two suit bid than at other vulnerabilies, and my stronger hands are probably stronger too (better quality suits).

3) How really distributional am I. The more distributional my two suiter is (6-5, 6-6, versus 5-5), the more likley I am to bid it before the bidding gets out of hand with a weaker two suiters but lots of playing strength.

4) How easy a rebid will I have.

On this hand, the quality of the suits, and the 6-5 distribution and the rebid problem if I over call a heart and next hand bids some number of the minor, would push me to use michaels. Switch the majors (6S, 5H), I would overcall 1S unless we were vul or unless partner was a passed hand.

Ben

[hotShot]

Michaels is a forcing bid, you partner should give a preference for the suits you offerd. The question is does he need to know how strong you are?

As Ben pointed out, if partner holds a passed Hand, it's your decision to pass or raise. If the bidding can be more complex, partner needs to know your strength.

The true strength of a distributed hand like that is hard to catch in HCP, top players think in "trick taking potential" taking opponents bids into account. If they "feel" they will benefit form an intermediate michaels, they will bid it. Knowing that, they have to allow the full range by agreement.

[ochinko]

Quote

I think the posted hand is the demonstration that 2 suiters should be given in terms of LOSERS (or playing tricks if you prefer), rather than hcp.

Me too. You don't even have to think in terms of losers. You ask yourself whether your hand is so strong that you're going to bid a game after your partner takes a preference, or so weak that you are going to pass it. In both of those cases Michaels is preferable IMO. With all hands in between you better bid spades, then hearts.

This means that a negotiation is needed beforehand with your partner never to invite you because you could be very weak. This makes Michaels less desirable when your hand is weak and you're playing with a random partner even if she knows Michaels enough to tell which suits you have.

It is also important whether you are in second, or in third position. If my partner has already passed on borderline cases I'd happily use Michaels because I'm not persuing a game. I'm with Ben here.

Petko

[han]

I'd bid 2D without a doubt. Over 2H or 2S by partner I will make another move with 3H, invitational to game. Give partner the two major suits king and game is excellent, I would like to get there!

[Free]

2♦ here is probably best, since you might leave ♠s out if you start bidding ♥ and opps jump to 5♦...