[Flame]

My partner and i were playing kickback over minor, we needed to define rules to when does 4d/4h is kickback, and didnt do a good job there.
We stoped playing kickback after a board which partner opened 1nt, and with 6H-4S i decided to bid 2c stayman, and on 2d i bid 4h, partner thought this 4H is kickback, this really freaked me out, i yelled at him which is something i never do, but saying 4h is kickback was just crazy, and i said no more kickback.
Now i wonder is it even possible to play serious bridge without a bid other then 4nt to ask for aces ?
I would like to know how you ask for aces over minor and if you have rules for it.
Oviously it should be after a real minor bid, but what else ? should it always be with a jump, should we have a raize before ? does it works also in competitve ? what if i bid heart and partner bid diamond, will my heart bid be nat ?
And more is it better to play te ace asking with 4 of our minor (like luke does)
OR maybe we can play 4d over diamond and 4c over club, or just always 4c.
many questions, but not as many as the number of misunderstandings this can bring.

[luke warm]

first of all, in any game forcing auction where a minor is agreed, 4 of that minor is rkc for me... it can't possibly hurt... second, when a minor is agreed *any* jump to 4 of that minor is rkc...

i used to play kickback (still do over 1H, 4S being rkc with 4nt being xrkc for spades), and i have nothing against it at all, as long as both parties know what's happening...

[pclayton]

We've had similar issues, but I can't imagine 4♥ being kickback over a 2♦ stayman response. I've never seen minor suit kickback rules elaborated anywhere, so maybe we can take a shot here:

1. Kickback is on when we never bid any other suit (duh).
2. On when we make a preference and jump to the kickback call
3. Off in ALL NT auctions (some sort of key card gerber applies - I'm willing to bend on this one - maybe KB is better).
4. On when we have had TWO chances to support partner's (This one is mine - I think its useful - 1♥ - 2♦ - 3♦ - 3♠ - 3N - 4♥.
5. Off in a minor if we support partner's major on our 2nd opportunity: 1♥ - 2♦-3♦-4♥.
6. If we can make a forcing raise first, then kickback is off; 1♦ - 4♥ for instance.


When I'm starting a new partnership, I always set up a meta-agreement: if 4N CAN be key card, regardless of what other types of minor suit asks we play, it IS key card. The different auctions work themselves out later.

[Flame]

The see two problems with playing 4 of our minor, first we can no longer play it as show support and slam interest , asking partner to cue bid, and second today we play GF as being forcing to game including 5m, but i know this is tehoreticly wrong and i hope someday we will need those 4d to be non forcing in many senarions.
On the other hand, i really hate the 4h bid, 4d on 4c is much clearer.
Thxs for the answers so far, hope to see more, including about the question, does it possible to play at high level of bridge without it ? (i played all my life without it but i mean does say 15% of the world championship partnerships dont have it)

[Free]

I'm used to play like Luke:

With m fit: 4m = RKC m (minorwood)
With ♥ fit: 4♠ = RKC ♥ (kickback)
With ♠ fit: 4NT = RKC ♠

It hasn't given me any problems or confusing auctions, the only thing you might miss is some invitational stuff over your minor. Playing complete kickback might give more problems if one or the other player bid that suit already, but I never played it over minors so I can't judge.

About your 6-4, I think you both bid quite silly After a 2♦ stayman response, you have Smolen available to show you 6-4, and let partner play (first bid 3♠ showing 5+♥s, next transfer to ♥ to show a 6-card). 4♥ has no real meaning in that case. However, if you don't play Smolen, then interpreting 4♥ as kickback is crazy ofcourse, since 2♦ isn't real, it's a conventional bid showing 2+♦s and no 4-card M...
If you don't play Smolen, I don't think Stayman is the good start. Just transfer to ♥ and jump to 3♠.

[Rebound]

First, cheers to Free, Smolen is the way to go for 2-suited major hands over 1NT opening.

Second, I want to recommend Roman Keycard Blackwood - Slam Bidding in the 21st Century by Eddie Kantar. I couldn't imagine a more concise and complete description of RKB as it applies to both minor and major suit auctions. In particular, he suggests that after minor-suit agreement, a 4-level bid in the agreed suit is RKB, however, if there is no agreement it is natural and invitational. In that case, to ask for keycards, it is necessary to find another bid, usually the other minor or 4♥.

Just my $0.02

p.s. Of course, I don't believe this applies in any way to a stayman response to nt.

[inquiry]

I like complicated bidding tools..... but, I don't care for kickback.. give it up. I do use 4m as RKCB or minorwood if GF is in effect. This works well for me.

ben