[Fluffy]

well you all knew this I guess, but I still have to post it

1♦-1♥
2NT-3♣
3♥-4♥

2NT will find best game between 3NT and 4♥ it is true that sometimes 5♦ will be best, but you won't have the space to have the accuracy to find out, so just forcing to game works better.

[Free]

I overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

[bluecalm]

Quote

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

So you play it as forcing ?

Quote

We've seen where 3C! has been used as an artificial GF, SJS such as in:
1M - 1NT!
3C!

or
1D - 1S
3C!

Using gnasher's idea ( of 2S! )

All is easy if this hand was GF opposite 1♥ response but it isn't imo. Do you guys all want to GF with it ?

[hanp]

I think it's a very good idea to use 2S as potentially artificial in the auctions 1m - 1H, and also to use 1C - 1S - 1D as potentially artificial. Serious partnerships that claim not play those as artificial but bid it without real suits anyway will do better by having firm agreements on what hands those auctions can contain and how these are shown afterwards. By using a little artificiality a lot of clarity can be gained and space can be saved.

[Free]

bluecalm, on Sep 10 2010, 11:08 AM, said:

Quote

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

So you play it as forcing ?

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

[Fluffy]

hanp, on Sep 10 2010, 10:37 AM, said:

and also to use 1C - 1S - 1D as potentially artificial.

Very good, you bid 1♦ then correct to 2♦ and partner alerts, so sad this doesn't work with spades because then it is a legal call .

[Fluffy]

Free, on Sep 10 2010, 11:39 AM, said:

bluecalm, on Sep 10 2010, 11:08 AM, said:

Quote

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

So you play it as forcing ?

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

I have it overloaded also with 19+ with 6+ cards in my suit

[bluecalm]

Quote

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

Imo it is decent solution, especially if you combine it with putting all 18-19 balanced hands in 1♣ so after 1♦ 2NT is always some kind of unbal strong hand (6-3M, 6d-4c, 5d-4c); this way you can have natural reverses and natural jumpshifts (showing 5cards). Better yet would be putting all 18-19 balanced hands in mexican 2♦. Then I would even like to play such system...

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on Sep 10 2010, 05:48 AM, said:

Better yet would be putting all 18-19 balanced hands in mexican 2♦. Then I would even like to play such system...

Speaking of yummy. I have seen M2♦ in action, but have never noticed a sequence where it gained over some other methods. I imagine it is valuable as an "eliminator" --so the 18-19 bal. hand is not a possibility for a 2NT rebid, which can then be used for something else. The drawback (hence, yummy) is when the partnership would have been better off passing a 1m bid than playing in 2NT.

[ONEferBRID]

♠ Ax
♥ Kxx
♦ AQxxxxx
♣ A

♠ xxxx
♥ AQ10xx
♦ x
♣ xxx

Just playing some more with gnasher's 2S! "toy" ( GF, may be artificial ).
The beauty of it is that the clarification stays BELOW 3NT :

1D - 1H
2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification )
??
   3C! = 4s, no 3h, 5+d
   3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
   3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d
   3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Similar scheme for 1C open:
1C - 1H
2S! - 2NT!
??
  3C! = long Cl
  3D! = 4s, no 3h, 5+c
  3H! = 3h
  3S! = 4s and 3h

[hanp]

I find this hard to believe Aqua. I think I've seen the auction 2D - 2H - 2S twice on vugraph. Both times 2S made while the other table was down in 3S.

Of course the system loses sometimes, either by already being too high or by not being able to use 2D for something different. But the Italian pairs that play it are among the very best in the world and they take their system very seriously. If they didn't think that the advantages outweighed the disadvantages they wouldn't bother.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I imagine it is valuable as an "eliminator" --so the 18-19 bal. hand is not a possibility for a 2NT rebid

This is minor thing.
The major thing are gains in competition.
As opener can't have 18-19 balanced anymore then double is always pure takout and practically guarantees shortness in their suit.
For example:

1♦ - 2♠ pass - 3♠
dbl

It's much easier to make decisions here when you know opener is 1-3-6-3/1-4-5-3/1-3-5-4/1-4-4-4 almost always. In standard system you have to worry about 18-19 balanced all the time.

One other example:

1♣ - pass 1♥ 2♠
dbl 3♠ - ???

Now with 5 hearts you have easy 4H almost always as well as with 5clubs 4C or even with 5d you can bid 4D often. In tandard you often pass those doubles fearing 18-19 balanced.

This is recurring theme in competiton. If you absolutely don't want to adopt mexican 2D you should at least move all 18-19 balanced to 1C opening imo.