[vanilla]

how come this always makes opponents want to hit you ?
and how come even TD's seem not to be able to handle it ???
was in a tourney where partner opened 1 H - thereafter passed
my bid 1 S and I was about to play that....then dymmy pops up
with 3S and a single H opps yelled for TD
what was more surprising was that TD just dismissed us from table
with no comments at all..........can anybody fill me in with what
rules are for bluffing and if rules are different in different countries

[Flame]

bluffing is not against bridge rules as long as it does the same to partner, and by that i mean there is no way in the world you could predict that . This "cant predict things" is not something you can just say, this mean you had no clue, or even could have no clue, for example from today you will have to alert any 1h in the same situation , because you are no longer in the possition to say "i couldnt know" , if you were in that possition before, for example if you both read a book in which this "bluff" was presented then you just cheated, because you had more info then your opponents did.
Beside this any club can deside not to allow bluffing , even if the bridge law accept them.
I am really against this kind of play, it doesnt worth it, especially if you consider yourself a good player and have intentions of wining a tournament.

[Free]

it's no problem to bluff, but YOU have to bid as if you don't know it! Your 4♠ bid will be dependent of your support in ♥ most of the time... If it's clear you suddenly knew it was a psych, then you'll get adjusted scores.

[Flame]

Free, on Jul 4 2004, 04:29 AM, said:

If it's clear you suddenly knew it was a psych

Imo it doesnt have to be clear, if there is any chance you knew or even could have suspected it (like when it happend before) i would give adjusted score.

[luke warm]

i've played with hrothgar in two aba tourneys.. he psyched a 1nt opening in 3rd seat in one, and bid 2♠ in response to my 1♠ in the other, with 2 or 3 hcp

in both those instances i had no clue his bid meant anything other than what they showed.. .however, in future tourneys if he bids 1nt in 3rd i think it's incumbent upon me to pm the opps and say "he has psyched in that position before" or when he raises a major from one to two, pm them and say "he's been known to make that bid when relatively weak"

i don't *know* if i'm required to do that, but it seems right... any thoughts?

[AceOfHeart]

removing psyching takes the fun and out of bidding!, unless the tourney director state explictly that psyches are banned, it should be allowed under the laws of the game.

[BurnKryten]

Quote

how come this always makes opponents want to hit you ?
and how come even TD's seem not to be able to handle it ???
was in a tourney where partner opened 1 H - thereafter passed
my bid 1 S and I was about to play that....then dymmy pops up
with 3S and a single H opps yelled for TD
what was more surprising was that TD just dismissed us from table
with no comments at all..........can anybody fill me in with what
rules are for bluffing and if rules are different in different countries

This sounds like an ordinary, successful psych to me. It is legal to make any call at your turn, provided it isn't a concealed partnership understanding, and is not restricted by the conditions of contest of the tournament (For example, psyching a strong artificial two clubs opening is disallowed by some Sponsoring Organizations). It is also not permitted to make "illegal allowance" for your partner having psyched, but that's hardly the case here.

Unless the TD had clearly posted in the tournament conditions that psychic bids are not allowed, then nothing illegal has happened here. Dismissing you from the tournament without comment also seems wrong - doesn't the TD have an obligation to inform competitors why they are being penalized?

Regarding some of the other posters - I disagree that one incident makes an "agreement". I do not believe it is useful to one's opponents to disclose "Of the many times my partner has opened 1NT in third position, one was psychic." Perhaps some measure of frequency of psychics by a particular player or partnership would be more useful, or perhaps a description of situations where psychics are more likely. For my part, I am vastly more likely to psych in third position, white on red - is this alertable, or just bridge?

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Jul 4 2004, 06:10 PM, said:

i've played with hrothgar in two aba tourneys.. he psyched a 1nt opening in 3rd seat in one, and bid 2♠ in response to my 1♠ in the other, with 2 or 3 hcp

As I recall, I bid a forcing NT and then bid 2♠. Could be wrong, however, I can think of many 3 point hands where I would bid an immediate 2♠.

Maybe

Kxx
x
xxxx
xxxxx

or some such...

[Trpltrbl]

Psyching, or bluffing, is a part of bridge. I am sure if you would have gotten a bad score opps would not have called director.
They are just crybabies.

Mike

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Jul 4 2004, 07:39 PM, said:

luke warm, on Jul 4 2004, 06:10 PM, said:

i've played with hrothgar in two aba tourneys.. he psyched a 1nt opening in 3rd seat in one, and bid 2♠ in response to my 1♠ in the other, with 2 or 3 hcp

As I recall, I bid a forcing NT and then bid 2♠. Could be wrong, however, I can think of many 3 point hands where I would bid an immediate 2♠.

Maybe

Kxx
x
xxxx
xxxxx

or some such...

you're right, so you did

all i remember is, the opps got mad but had no reason to... geez

[the hog]

I would lodge a complaint about the Td's behaviour with Uday. This behaviour is unconscionable.

[Flame]

AceOfHeart, on Jul 4 2004, 10:49 AM, said:

removing psyching takes the fun and out of bidding!, unless the tourney director state explictly that psyches are banned, it should be allowed under the laws of the game.

Imo and im sure not alone there, psyching is what takes the fun out of bridge, psycs as i see them are anti bridge. I told my partner today that if he psyc i will bid 7nt right away, i dont like it when im not allowed to take part in making the result of the board, i consider myself a good player and i want to influent, and this is exactly what the psych take away from me, this is way i dont like it.

[Gerardo]

Flame: In a word, DON'T. If you don't like psyches, go lobby to get them banned in the Laws (don't wish you good luck in that) or maybe CoC, easier. Till then, they are fair game.
Psyching is taking a unusual decision, but one which psycher think it will get a better result for his/her side. It may be right, or wrong.
OTOH, bidding 7NT is just giving the hand away. Please, DON'T DO THAT. Thank you.

[the hog]

"i consider myself a good player"

I do not know of ANY top player who does not occasionally, sometimes very rarely, psyche. As I have stated many times, it is a completely acceptable part of the game. To describe it as "anti bridge" is nonsense!

Furthermore to bid 7N in this situation is totally unethical behaviour.

[Trpltrbl]

I agree with Ron.
Psyching part of the game, like it or not, just deal with it.

Mike

[Flame]

Gerardo, on Jul 4 2004, 06:12 PM, said:

Flame: In a word, DON'T. If you don't like psyches, go lobby to get them banned in the Laws (don't wish you good luck in that) or maybe CoC, easier. Till then, they are fair game.
Psyching is taking a unusual decision, but one which psycher think it will get a better result for his/her side. It may be right, or wrong.
OTOH, bidding 7NT is just giving the hand away. Please, DON'T DO THAT. Thank you.

I have every right to expect my partner not to psych, i dont see any problem with that.

Psychs are a problem in the bridge law, because you nearly can never say that the psych's partner didnt have even the slightest advantage over the opponents, its enough that you and your partner both read about with a specific psych, or both read this thread, you already have some info about your partner bids that your opponents didnt have. With all this said, dont get me wrong, i never complained (or even called a director) when opponents psyched against me.

[Cascade]

Flame, on Jul 4 2004, 07:48 PM, said:

AceOfHeart, on Jul 4 2004, 10:49 AM, said:

removing psyching takes the fun and out of bidding!, unless the tourney director state explictly that psyches are banned, it should be allowed under the laws of the game.

Imo and im sure not alone there, psyching is what takes the fun out of bridge, psycs as i see them are anti bridge. I told my partner today that if he psyc i will bid 7nt right away, i dont like it when im not allowed to take part in making the result of the board, i consider myself a good player and i want to influent, and this is exactly what the psych take away from me, this is way i dont like it.

Bidding 7NT will give you control over the result on the board.

I would judge a frivilous bid of 7NT as worse than a psyche. The frivilous 7NT ruins the fun for everyone. A psyche still gives the opponents a legitimate bridge problem to solve.

From yesterday

---

2♥ Pass ?

2♥ = 5-10 five hearts and four or more of a minor.

I bid a natural non-forcing 2♠.

I think everyone enjoyed this psyche. And I think the opponents would still have enjoyed it even if they did not get a top.

I scrambled 3-off -150 and unfortunately 140 was the limit of the hand for the opponents.

[ehhh]

I can live with a pysch bid, as distasteful as they are, if indeed it is a psych bid; but, all too often players are making destructive & unsportmanlike bids under the guise that they are psychs. I for one would be interested in seeing the whole hand before passing snap judgments on the TD.

[Flame]

Cascade, on Jul 4 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

Bidding 7NT will give you control over the result on the board.

I would judge a frivilous bid of 7NT as worse than a psyche. The frivilous 7NT ruins the fun for everyone. A psyche still gives the opponents a legitimate bridge problem to solve.

From yesterday

---

2♥ Pass ?

2♥ = 5-10 five hearts and four or more of a minor.

I bid a natural non-forcing 2♠.

I think everyone enjoyed this psyche. And I think the opponents would still have enjoyed it even if they did not get a top.

I scrambled 3-off -150 and unfortunately 140 was the limit of the hand for the opponents.

Bidding 7nt is worse then a psych, i agree.
Now consurning your psych, you talks about it like its a normal bid, if so dont you think the opponents have the right to know about it ?
I'm sure you dont feel like you have cheated, and im not saying you did, but law and the idea behind the law is that you cant by any mean have any extra information over your opponents. Ask yourself, are their psyches you tend to make more then others ? yes ? then you break the law, because your partner know something the opponents dont.
Its almost impossible to play 100% honest when using psyches, you will nearly always have some kind of extra knowlege.

[the hog]

"I can live with a pysch bid, as distasteful as they are, "

Yet again another who does not understand the Laws of the game!
If you never psyche, the opponents will be too trusting of your bidding. Here is an example:
(1H) X (1S) ?
You hold Kxxxx xxx AJx xx
If you know the opponents always have their bid, you would be mad to enter the auction with 2S. If these particular opponents have psyched once or twice in the past, then 2S is far more palatable. So you bid 2S and this time pd has doubled on xxx of S and the 1S bidder had his bid and you are going for a number. Never making the opponents guess is really poor bridge.
Psyches "distasteful"? What an absolute load of codswallop!