Help
For my BIL teaching sessions I often generate hands based on a theme and see how they cope. This is from the balancing session and there was debate about the best call.
I said I'd ask you for a second opinion!
Paul
BIL Balancing Problem
#1
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 5,054
- Joined: 2003-April-26
- Gender:Male
- Location:Scottish Borders
Posted 2008-February-18, 15:27
For my BIL teaching sessions I often generate hands based on a theme and see how they cope. This is from the balancing session and there was debate about the best call.
I said I'd ask you for a second opinion!
Paul
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 15,380
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Natick, MA
-
Interests:Travel
Cooking
Brewing
Hiking
Posted 2008-February-18, 15:31
I expect this to boil down to a debate between 2♦ and double.
I think that double is quite attractive at MP, particularly if your partner can handle a Moysian well. In the BIL, playing IMPs, I'll bid 2♦
I think that double is quite attractive at MP, particularly if your partner can handle a Moysian well. In the BIL, playing IMPs, I'll bid 2♦
Alderaan delenda est
#3
- Under bidder
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 11,797
- Joined: 2004-July-25
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Posted 2008-February-18, 15:33
I wouldn't expect any debate about double but there you have it, I'm wrong again.
The only options are 1D and 2D in my opinion and this is a minimum 2D for me.
The only options are 1D and 2D in my opinion and this is a minimum 2D for me.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#4
- Csaba the Hutt
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 13,027
- Joined: 2006-June-16
- Gender:Male
- Location:Göttingen, Germany
- Interests:bye
Posted 2008-February-18, 15:35
2♦. Gets most of my hand off my chest. I'd rather play diamonds than a moysian on this hand and we probably don't have a 5-3 major fit. Partner will bid 3NT with a penalty pass, and he'll like my diamonds.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#5
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,502
- Joined: 2007-December-22
Posted 2008-February-18, 15:41
Agree with 2♦
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,726
- Joined: 2006-June-05
- Location:Oslo, Norway
- Interests:Bridge, sports, Sci-fi, fantasy
Posted 2008-February-18, 16:08
han, on Feb 18 2008, 10:33 PM, said:
I wouldn't expect any debate about double but there you have it, I'm wrong again.
The only options are 1D and 2D in my opinion and this is a minimum 2D for me.
The only options are 1D and 2D in my opinion and this is a minimum 2D for me.
Agree with Han.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#7
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-February-18, 16:47
Double? To find a 4-3 when pard forgot to overcall ?
1♦ for me.
1♦ for me.
"Phil" on BBO
#8
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 15,380
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Natick, MA
-
Interests:Travel
Cooking
Brewing
Hiking
Posted 2008-February-18, 16:54
pclayton, on Feb 19 2008, 01:47 AM, said:
Double? To find a 4-3 when pard forgot to overcall ?
1♦ for me.
1♦ for me.
This is precisely the type of hand where a Moysian works very well.
You'll have your choice of a couple lines of play:
1. Ruffing clubs in the short hand
2. Establishing Diamonds and pulling trump
As I mentioned originally, this is IMPs.
I'm not all that concerned about which partial scores better.
I'm bidding 2♦
If this were MP, I might very well double
Alderaan delenda est
#9
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 895
- Joined: 2006-May-13
- Location:Dublin
- Interests:Artificial Intelligence, Computer Games, Satire, Football, Rugby... and Bridge I suppose.
Posted 2008-February-18, 17:09
I bid 1♦. I won't shoot a pard who chooses 2♦. Anything else is overthinking.
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
#10
- The Abbess
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,082
- Joined: 2004-April-22
- Gender:Female
- Location:UK
Posted 2008-February-18, 17:18
I voted 1♦ but not sure what the requirements should be for 2♦. I would prefer slightly more than this I think but I might be wrong.
What is the problem with 1♦? Is it that we could get stolen from if opps bid 2M or 3♣ before we get the chance of bidding 2♦ (or doubling 2♣)?
What is the problem with 1♦? Is it that we could get stolen from if opps bid 2M or 3♣ before we get the chance of bidding 2♦ (or doubling 2♣)?
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#11
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,937
- Joined: 2004-June-05
Posted 2008-February-18, 17:28
pclayton, on Feb 18 2008, 05:47 PM, said:
Double? To find a 4-3 when pard forgot to overcall ?
1♦ for me.
1♦ for me.
Because your pard always X's with 4-3 in the majors regardless of count?
The two cases I think most likely are...
1) Partner will be considering 3NT, or
2) We're going to be on defense, not necessarily against clubs.
In both cases, I think I'd rather tell my partner about the support for three suits and short clubs than tell him about the diamonds.
The problem with 1♦ is that we miss 3NT when it's right.
#12
- Group: Yellows
- Posts: 6,760
- Joined: 2003-July-22
- Gender:Male
- Location:New Zealand
- Interests:Juggling, Unicycling
Posted 2008-February-18, 18:03
Intermediate jumps are normal for fourth seat.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#14
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,871
- Joined: 2007-April-22
- Location:Santa Clara, CA
Posted 2008-February-18, 18:14
I have adjusted 4th seat jump bidding, but balancing jump bids are similar to direct jump bids (AFAIK) in my regular partnerships. So I'd feel too heavy for a 2♦ response with my nice hand and bid 1♦. My 3 card both majors provide some support to not worrying as much about opponents having 4M.
I could make game in 5♦ or 3NT opposite the right passed hand and could see winning a part score battle in 3♦ or 2M or setting the opponents in 3M.
I could make game in 5♦ or 3NT opposite the right passed hand and could see winning a part score battle in 3♦ or 2M or setting the opponents in 3M.
#15
- Deipnosophist
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 4,386
- Joined: 2005-March-22
Posted 2008-February-18, 18:17
2♦ for me (and I'm presuming this intermediate). Lots of factors here as partner didn't have an overcall of 1♣. About the most I expect over there is a weak NT. Opposite that, 3N will probably have some play and partner can judge our hand type. Opposite any other hand (other than some unsuitable strong 3-suiter), I doubt we want to go anywhere and 2♦ is at least somewhat preemptive for them finding another fit.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
#16
- 5555
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,516
- Joined: 2003-September-04
- Gender:Male
Posted 2008-February-18, 19:35
I would bid 1♦, I don't see us missing game over that.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#17
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 14,566
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amelia Island, FL
- Interests:Bridge, what else?
Posted 2008-February-18, 19:53
I am going to bid 2♦. This is, at best, a minimum 2♦ bid, but 1♦ does nothing to inhibit the opponents bidding. If I bid 1♦ here, LHO can bid 1 major to show long club and the major, or can easily rebid 2♣ with great club suit, or even jump to 3♣. Over 2♦, he can still bid 2 Major to show the same hand, but at considerable more risk, and the difference between 2♣ and 3♣ jump is now gone. If he wants to jump he has to go higher still.
So, for me, the jump is worth it, becuase it describes the hand (albeit this is a minimum) and it makes it harder on the opponents to continue effectively. And should partner bid a major over this jump, well, I then really love my hand. If i double and partner bids a simple major, or even a jump in a major, I will not be so in love with my hand, and the continuation will be less clear. So it makes my futher bidding simplier too.
So, for me, the jump is worth it, becuase it describes the hand (albeit this is a minimum) and it makes it harder on the opponents to continue effectively. And should partner bid a major over this jump, well, I then really love my hand. If i double and partner bids a simple major, or even a jump in a major, I will not be so in love with my hand, and the continuation will be less clear. So it makes my futher bidding simplier too.
--Ben--
#18 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-February-18, 21:44
Reasons I don't like 2D:
- We could miss a major suit fit and play in a very inferior diamond fit.
- Our suit is rather weak for a 2D bid.
Reasons I like 1D:
- I don't see anything bad happening over this. If partner bids a major I can raise. If he bids NT I can go back to diamonds. If he makes a stronger bid we can get to game. If the opps bid clubs I can now double and have described my hand very well (having failed to doubled the first time).
I do not think this hand is understrength or overstrength for 2D in terms of playing strength. I do think it is misdescriptive on suit quality and playability elsewhere. I mean obviously if people had K sixth they would never bid 2D, or if they had 4M 6D they would not usually bid 2D. To me this is a less extreme case of both. I do not think 1D denies a hand with the playing strength required for 2D though.
The one good thing I see about 2D is that it preempts clubs better but I still don't think that makes up for the downsides of 2D.
- We could miss a major suit fit and play in a very inferior diamond fit.
- Our suit is rather weak for a 2D bid.
Reasons I like 1D:
- I don't see anything bad happening over this. If partner bids a major I can raise. If he bids NT I can go back to diamonds. If he makes a stronger bid we can get to game. If the opps bid clubs I can now double and have described my hand very well (having failed to doubled the first time).
I do not think this hand is understrength or overstrength for 2D in terms of playing strength. I do think it is misdescriptive on suit quality and playability elsewhere. I mean obviously if people had K sixth they would never bid 2D, or if they had 4M 6D they would not usually bid 2D. To me this is a less extreme case of both. I do not think 1D denies a hand with the playing strength required for 2D though.
The one good thing I see about 2D is that it preempts clubs better but I still don't think that makes up for the downsides of 2D.
#19
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-February-18, 22:01
hrothgar, on Feb 18 2008, 02:54 PM, said:
pclayton, on Feb 19 2008, 01:47 AM, said:
Double? To find a 4-3 when pard forgot to overcall ?
1♦ for me.
1♦ for me.
This is precisely the type of hand where a Moysian works very well.
You'll have your choice of a couple lines of play:
1. Ruffing clubs in the short hand
2. Establishing Diamonds and pulling trump
As I mentioned originally, this is IMPs.
I'm not all that concerned about which partial scores better.
I'm bidding 2♦
If this were MP, I might very well double
1. Ruffing clubs in the short hand
Hopefully not with our honors
2. Establishing Diamonds and pulling trump
Hopefully we have a late entry and we haven't lost control in the meantime.
As I mentioned originally, this is IMPs.
I'm not all that concerned about which partial scores better.
Right - that's a good reason to play diamonds.
"Phil" on BBO
#20
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 331
- Joined: 2005-August-28
Posted 2008-February-18, 23:39
2D for many of the reasons given including it shows the long suit and because I play 1D artificial here in line with principles from the Blue Team of cheaper minor as intermediate (say 12-15 guideline) takeout in the balancing seat...
For 3NT I show what I have - and the issue for any other game is either Moyse (as partner declined to overcall in M at 1-level) and requires very good intermediates/lesser honours.
If I double I will not get to D, but if I bid D I might get to M when it is right....
regards
For 3NT I show what I have - and the issue for any other game is either Moyse (as partner declined to overcall in M at 1-level) and requires very good intermediates/lesser honours.
If I double I will not get to D, but if I bid D I might get to M when it is right....
regards
(1♣) - Pass - (Pass) - ?