[rbforster]

Does anyone have experience playing a narrower 1NT range such as 14-15 or 16-17?

Playing a strong club and depending on how light you open balanced hands, you can have a more "precise" set of NT ranges. Just an example of such a system:

1NT 14-15 open 1N
1NT 16-17 1♣(strong)-1♦(neg)-1N
1NT 18-19 1♣(strong)-1♦(neg)-1♥(stronger)-1♠(weaker)-1N
(12-13 balanced would open 1♦ and rebid 1N; weaker balanced hands would pass)

I'm guessing it might makes sense to switch from traditional "strong NT" systems to something more relay-oriented. Standard NT systems focus a lot more on invitational sequences, which makes more sense opposite the wider 3 point range (possibly 3.5 point range if you include upgrades of 14+ to a 15-17 NT).

Do you still need invites opposite a 2 point range? Or do you just check for major suit fits and then up/down-grade appropriately as responder? Or are there enough bids over 1NT that you can still have it all with good methods (i.e. invites for good hands in the 16-17 range vs bad ones, still check for the right strain, etc)?

One last possibility I included in the poll is that you don't think this 2 point precision is worth it (and 3 point ranges are "good enough"). Depending on what you want, you could instead use the extra space to avoid a 2+ 1♦ opener, open a 10-12 weak NT instead (Non Vul), etc. If you've got an opinion as to the relative merits of this, I'm all ears.

Thanks for your comments.

[PassedOut]

Rob F, on Jan 28 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

Do you still need invites opposite a 2 point range?

The Bridge World, May 1993 issue, has an article, Inviting and Accepting, that explains why there is very little gain for invites even opposite a 3-point 1NT range. One reason is that fairly often an unfavorable layout sets a game contract two tricks, whereas a favorable layout allows the game to make. (Kind of like a 5 or 7 hand, but at a much lower level.)

So I doubt very much that you'd need invites at a narrower range.

I don't have experience playing the narrower range because I like to open 1NT (weak) often.

[awm]

It depends on your "type" of invites. It's true that opposite the narrower range you don't really need a straight "points" invite on a balanced hand. So you can use 1NT-2NT for something else (without having to put an invite through stayman).

However, there are plenty of invites where you're hoping to make game based on a fit rather than points. Most "six card major suit" invites fall into this category for example. There are hands where you have 4441 shape and not enough for game on points, where game is still good if partner has a four-card major.

A lot of the "invite" sequences in standard bidding are used by these hands (sometimes only by these hands, or sometimes doing double duty with the "points" type invites). So I don't think you can get rid of invites entirely.

I'd also note that I don't think relay methods over 1NT are the way to go. Relays work much better if the person with the singleton can describe their singleton, rather than the person with balanced shape patterning out (i.e. balanced partner's holding opposite unbalanced partner's singleton is much more important than any details about balanced partner's pattern).

[jdonn]

I actually know someone who doesn't use any invites after 1NT openings and has a system based around it. I wonder if I could get them to send it to me. It was pretty much normal notrump systems though, with different transfer based definitions for the other sequences. They could do things like bid stayman then invite or sign off in a minor.

[mikestar]

If it doesn't over strain the rest of your system, these two point ranges allow some excellent methods. The "no power invites" idea is a certain winner over 2-point ranges, and is probably a winner opposite 3-point ranges--but surely there will be fewer losing cases opposite the narrower range.

Consider how complex invitational sequences can be with a power invite. Your invitational hand might:

• Need a fit, range doesn't matter.
  
• Need a max, fit doesn't matter.
  
• Need a max or a fit.
  
• Need a max and a fit.

While playing no invites, all invitational sequences are like the first item--it's all about fit.

I notice that power invites in 1M-2M sequences are becoming rarer as well.

[ASkolnick]

We still have invites, but more or less have moved to the 2 point range in our precision club. On the lower end we have a wider range, but it works ok.

17-18 1C-followed by 1N
19-20 1C-1H-1N Kokish
21-22-1C-1D-2N
23-24 1C-1D-1H-2N Kokish

[Free]

In one partnership I play a 15-16 NT. I would advise to use a bigger range, but when you have the space, why not...

My favorite relayscheme is the following: 2♣ starts like stayman (but with 4333 respond 2♦). After the response, responder can continue relays with:
2♦ -> 2♠ (2♥ is garbage stayman)
2♥ -> 2♠
2♠ -> 2NT

After 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠:
2NT = any 4333 (-> 3♣ relay, show 4 card suit)
3♣ = 5♣ (-> 3♦ relay, show shortness)
3♦ = 4-4m (->3♥ relay, show shortness)
3♥/♠/NT = 5♦, showing shortness

After 1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠:
2NT = 4♥-4♠ (-> 3♣ relay, show shortness)
3♣ = 4♥-4♣ (-> 3♦ relay, show shortness)
3♦ = 4♥-4♦ (-> 3♥ relay, show shortness)
3♥/♠/NT = 5♥, showing shortness

After 1NT-2♣-2♠-2NT:
3♣ = 4♠-4♣ (-> 3♦ relay, show shortness)
3♦ = 4♠-4♦ (-> 3♥ relay, show shortness)
3♥/♠/NT = 5♠, showing shortness

The relay scheme can be modified to right side the contract more often (like 3♣ being ♦s for example), but this is natural and very simple to see the structure. Also, every hand can be shown below 3NT. An obvious disadvantage of this is the fact that you can't open 1NT with 5422's or 6m322's...

Other bids can be used for several other purposes, mainly to show your hand instead of asking about partner's hand. Also some light invites are possible where other people would pass out 1NT or just transfer and pass...

[helene_t]

Rob F, on Jan 28 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

Do you still need invites opposite a 2 point range?

You don't need an invitational 2N response (or anything equivalent) but in a fit auction such as
1N-2♥(♠)
2♠-2N
3/4♠

opener could still have a sufficiently broad range to justify the invitational 2N bid.

But maybe the traditional meaning of
1N-2♣(staym)
2♠-2N*
is not so useful since responder, without having located a fit and without the values to bid 3N, would often either pass 2♠ with a 3-card or sign off in 3M. Maybe one could somehow modify Stayman to allow playing in the 4-3 fit when opener is 4-3 and responder 2-4 or vice versa.

[benlessard]

I really think the traditionnal 3 pts range is bad. Invitationnal hands are too rare and blast or pass strategies isnt working that well. So i prefer a wider range (10-14 or 12-15) or a shorter range (2.5 pts is best IMHO). Handling half pts isnt fun i admit.

Also you have to understand there is a big difference between INV sequences that allow you to play at a safe contract and INV sequence that lead you to 2Nt or 3M. In imps reaching a poor 4M is about the same then to stop in a risky 3M.

[rbforster]

So I've gone back to thinking about this issue for the system I'm working on, and I think I'll take the majority's advice here and allocate the space to better bidding on other hands treated less well presently. In particular, I think I'll be using the 2 different "strong" 1NT bids in my strong club system (1C-1D-1N, 1C-1D-1H-1S-1N) as 16-18 and 19-21. The NT ladder looks something like this:

10-12 weak NT (NV)
13-15 1D...1NT (NV)
12-15 1NT (Vul)
16-18 1C(strong)-1D(neg)-1N
19-21 1C(strong)-1D(neg)-1H(stronger)-1S(weaker)-1N
22+   1C(strong)-1D(neg)-1H(stronger)-1S(weaker)-2C("strong 2C")...NT

This frees up two 2N jumps (over 1C-1D, and 1C-1D-1H-1S) as available to show other hand types like long minor + 4 major + extras or whatever else looks awkward.