[ralph23]

Congratulations Harald, from your American friends!

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 08:43 PM, said:

Echognome, on Oct 13 2007, 07:36 PM, said:

I also think a congratulations are in order for Jan.  The U.S. teams finished 1st in the VC and the SB and 2nd in the BB.

Indeed, but a sad incident occurred during the presentation tonight. When the American ladies received their gold medals on the podium, they displayed a poster with

WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH

Hardly the place for a politcal statement in my opinion. I never thought that something like this would happen in bridge circles. The question is now whether the WBF/ACBL/USBF will take some kind of action.

I would hardly call this a "sad incident".

I don't have a problem if celebrities chose to take an active role promoting different causes. There have been times when I wished a celebrity would shut the ^*$#& up, however, that generally occurs when I

(a) agree with their position and
(B) think that they are being inarticulate

The US women's team (apparently) felt strongly enough about this subject that they chose to display a poster. So be it...

I would consider any kind of action by the WBF or the USBF completely unreasonable.

For what its worth, if I were hiring pros, I'd be a lot more likely to hire a member of this team after the incident in question than before it.

I think that there is a great danger that foreigners will stop distinguishing between American citizens and the idiots running the White House. its useful to remind them that not everyone agrees with the chimp...

[helene_t]

hrothgar, on Oct 13 2007, 08:51 PM, said:

For what its worth, if I were hiring pros, I'd be a lot more likely to hire a member of this team after the incident in question than before it.

Of course, it was a marketing stunt. Typical American

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Oct 13 2007, 08:51 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 08:43 PM, said:

Echognome, on Oct 13 2007, 07:36 PM, said:

I also think a congratulations are in order for Jan.  The U.S. teams finished 1st in the VC and the SB and 2nd in the BB.

Indeed, but a sad incident occurred during the presentation tonight. When the American ladies received their gold medals on the podium, they displayed a poster with

WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH

Hardly the place for a politcal statement in my opinion. I never thought that something like this would happen in bridge circles. The question is now whether the WBF/ACBL/USBF will take some kind of action.

I would hardly call this a "sad incident".

I don't have a problem if celebrities chose to take an active role promoting different causes. There have been times when I wished a celebrity would shut the ^*$#& up, however, that generally occurs when I

(a) agree with their position and
( think that they are being inarticulate

The US women's team (apparently) felt strongly enough about this subject that they chose to display a poster. So be it...

I would consider any kind of action by the WBF or the USBF completely unreasonable.

For what its worth, if I were hiring pros, I'd be a lot more likely to hire a member of this team after the incident in question than before it.

I think that there is a great danger that foreigners will stop distinguishing between American citizens and the idiots running the White House. its useful to remind them that not everyone agrees with the chimp...

It's a sad incident because it's the wrong place for a political manifestation. Do it outside the White House in Washington or the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit; that would be perfectly legitimate. I am no Bush fan by any means, but it is plain stupid to display a poster on the podium during the World Team Bridge Championships in Shanghai.

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

Whether you like Bush as the president of the United States or not is beside the point in this context.

Roland

[han]

I think you are exaggerating Roland.

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 10:07 PM, said:

It's a sad incident because it's the wrong place for a political manifestation. Do it outside the White House in Washington or the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit; that would be perfectly legitimate. I am no Bush fan by any means, but it is plain stupid to display a poster on the podium during the World Team Bridge Championships in Shanghai.

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

I agree with part of what you have to say: The Teams that went to Shanghai were selected for their ability to play high quality bridge. The winning teams accomplished just that...

To the victors, belong the spoils. If one of the teams wants to use their time in the spotlight to promote a cause, so be it. The very fact that they won the Venice Cup ensures that they will get bit more press coverage than some random protesters holding up a sign in Washington DC.

Personally, I think that you're taking the whole incident way too seriously.

I'm happy that dress codes for these events have been relaxed.
I wish that the organizers would drop all the idiocy surrounding drug testing.
I couldn't care less if some of the teams want to talk about politics or religion.

[fred]

Hannie, on Oct 13 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

I think you are exaggerating Roland.

I am very close to Roland's position on this one.

Maybe it doesn't seem like such a big deal because the politcal message the sign delivered is something that many people (including me) happen to agree with. If the sign delivered a different political message, say "Nuke Israel", then I expect the reaction would be very different.

Organizations, especially global organizations like the WBF, should not have the responsibility of deciding which political messages are acceptable from medalists at the closing ceremonies of their tournaments. "No political messages" is clearly the only sensible policy for them to adopt.

If the WBF has such a policy, they have every right to be upset that it was violated.

Similarly there is only one sensible policy for organizations like the ACBL that send their representatives to WBF tournaments: we do not want our representatives to get involved in delivering political messages.

If the ACBL has such a policy, they have every right to be upset that it was violated.

Every ACBL member also has the right to be upset. I am an ACBL member and, despite how it may sound, I am not upset at all - I actually don't care at all. If anything I find the whole thing to be rather amusing (my sense of humor can be perverse at times).

But I do think what happened was shockingly inappropriate (shocking because I can't believe these particular people would use such poor judgment even though I agree with the sentiment of their message).

Even if the ACBL and WBF have never established or articulated any policies in this area, I would hope that people smart enough to win a bridge World Championship would know better.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

Roland that is to ridiculous for words IMO. Inappropriate does not translate into sanction. What if they had held up a sign that said WORLD PEACE or FEED THE HOMELESS, should they receive sanctions then?

They came to try and win a world championship, but then are forced to stand under the flag of their country and celebrate under its national anthem when they don't believe in anything it stands for today. I say who can blame them.

BTW I also strongly disapprove with this topic being brought up to begin with in this thread, it should have been its own thread. This one should be happy

[cherdano]

Roland I think you are putting this out of proportion.

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

It's a sad incident because it's the wrong place for a political manifestation. Do it outside the White House in Washington or the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit; that would be perfectly legitimate. I am no Bush fan by any means, but it is plain stupid to display a poster on the podium during the World Team Bridge Championships in Shanghai.

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

I think "representing their country" is exactly what they were doing. Of course I don't know them, but it is a pretty certain bet that their motivation was that (in their opinion)
- many these days don't like the US because they don't like what the current administration is doing, and
- they wanted to remind those that there are many within the US, too, that disagree with this administration.

So they were exactly trying to represent their country in a better way than the current administration is. It seems far less of a political message to me (they weren't waving a sign in front of potential Bush voters after all) than one of self-defense ("Please don't blame me").

Arend

[hrothgar]

fred, on Oct 13 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

Maybe it doesn't seem like such a big deal because the political message the sign delivered is something that many people (including me) happen to agree with. If the sign delivered a different political message, say "Nuke Israel", then I expect the reaction would be very different.

Couple quick comments here:

1. The USA1 Bridge team isn't affiliated with the ACBL. I don't think that they get to say anything about this. The USBF on the other hand...

2. The members of USA1 made a deliberate decision to use their presence at the podium to make a political statement. Personally, I don't have any problem with this. Furthermore, I hope that I would maintain this position even if said players made a political statement that I found deeply distasteful.

[helene_t]

fred, on Oct 13 2007, 09:42 PM, said:

Similarly there is only one sensible policy for organizations like the ACBL that send their representatives to WBF tournaments: we do not want our representatives to get involved in delivering political messages.

I suppose ACBL neither can nor will interfere with the players' political (or otherwise) activities in their free time. I suppose ACBL and WBF would both be OK with the players showing their poster to a TV cameraman after the event.

Displaying a political poster during the victory ceremony sounds like bad taste to me. Now if some politicians had been trying to take advantage of a sports event I could understand if the participants felt compelled to fighting back, but this sounds as uncalled for. Then again, there may be some background that I'm unaware of.

Sanctions would be out of proportions, IMHO.

[mike777]

Congrats to all the winners, well done!

As others have said I hope permitting free speech posters pertain too political views you may despise. Please note almost any viewpoint expressed on a poster could be called political in the broadest sense of the word.

I agree this one is about as mild a political point they may have made.

Sanctions or not, if they felt strongly about it they should do it and pay whatever the cost.

As for Helene's daring post on good taste, well said but still daring.

[Walddk]

My sources at the venue tell me that several players and officials were very unhappy with what they saw. If that is the case, the American women, in my opinion, have violated the Laws of Duplicate Bridge:

Law 74
A. Proper Attitude
1. Courtesy.
A player should maintain a courteous attitude at all times.

2. Etiquette of Word and Action
A player should carefully avoid any remark or action that might cause annoyance or embarrassment to another player or might interfere with the enjoyment of the game.

[jdonn]

You have to be kidding. They weren't playing bridge! Those are the laws of Duplicate Bridge, not the laws of Award Ceremonies. How can you interfere with the enjoyment of a game that has already ended?

If I was them and any sort of punishment was given to me, then unless the WBF could point to a preexisting rule outlawing what I did I would immediately and indefinitely boycott any future WBF event and try to convince the USBF to do the same. Sorry, but not liking what they did is not a justification for punishment, any more than if they picked their noses on stage and you didn't like that.

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 11:26 PM, said:

My sources at the venue tell me that several players and officials were very unhappy with what they saw. If that is the case, the American women, in my opinion, have violated the Laws of Duplicate Bridge:

Law 74
A. Proper Attitude
1. Courtesy.
A player should maintain a courteous attitude at all times.
 
2. Etiquette of Word and Action
A player should carefully avoid any remark or action that might cause annoyance or embarrassment to another player or might interfere with the enjoyment of the game.

If we're going to get pedantic:

1. The "game" was over
2. There were no longer any "players"

I don't think that the laws have any bearing on proper behavior during an awards ceremony that takes place after the fact.

Furthermore, to the extent that anyone might take offense at this sort of behavior, I would think that it might some representative of the US team. After all: Its "our" country that is being mocked. I'd love to know just what players and officials found it so offensive that individuals had the audacity to speak out on a political topic. They're probably the same ones morning the good old days when gentlemen were required to wear dinner jackets...

(I wonder if the fact that this all took place under the auspices of a deeply repressive regime like China had anything to do with matters)

[Walddk]

Well, you may argue that the championships are over before the presentation. It's a matter of interpretation. It is also a matter of interpretation regarding the Conditions of Contest:

6. Ethics And Deportment
All contestants in World Bridge Championships are required to conform at all
times to the highest standards of ethics and deportment.

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Oct 13 2007, 03:50 PM, said:

Well, you may argue that the championships are over before the presentation. It's a matter of interpretation.

2.31 World Bridge Championship
means any event so designated by the WBF from time to time and if the context permits, also means the totality of such events scheduled for play at a particular site.

No play, no World Bridge Championship, no contest. This should also have been intuitively obvious.

Look, I can easily believe someone might be offended or not like what happened. Although I strongly disagree with this view, I can believe you feel they deserve punishment (not the same as there being a legal justification.) What I can not believe is you are in all seriousness trying to apply the laws of bridge to what happened.

[Walddk]

Something for the lawyers to interpret I suppose. Where is Mike Hargreaves when we need him?

Anyway, whether they have violated any law or not it's my view, like Fred's, that the women showed "shockingly poor judgement".

Roland

[hotShot]

We often read about censorship in china and that free speech is not possible there.

So I think this is a great place to show how much free speech a democratic nation can allow it's own people.

If the WBF where to disallow actions like that, it could be seen as sign of approval to censorship. I hope that won't happen.

Governments and politicians have used the success of athletes to prove their own superiority. Why should athletes not have the right to choose the politicians?

What if an athlete would not want to be used by an dictator or worse?

This post has been edited by hotShot: 2007-October-13, 15:40