[sceptic]

hi again

A couple of questions here for discussion,

1st one is what is wrong with bidding 2nt to show 4/4 in majors after a 2 club stayman bid

2nd one is after 1nt p 2c p 2d p 3c = asking for 3 of a major is this extended stayman and is it any good?

Thanks again

[mr1303]

Number 1, it does remove an escape if you use stayman on a hand like this:


SQxxx
Hxxx
Dxxxxx
Cx

Playing a weak NT, hands like this come up often enough to be able to use garbage stayman.

Number 2, I prefer to use this sequence as a slam try in clubs. Presumably in order to use it as extended stayman, you need to be 5-5 in the majors. I use transfers in this situation

1NT 2H 2S 3H is GF 5-5
1NT 2D 2H 2S is invitational 5-5

A bid of 2NT/3NT after these sequences by 1NT opener suggests that the 1NT may have been slightly off center.

Mark

[Free]

1. The only reason why it's not good is because of the removal of garbage stayman. If you don't play garbage stayman, then you might as well use it. These days, more and more people play 2♣ as a relay, which doesn't promisse a 4 card Majors, can be strong/weak/intermediate,... So after a bidding 1NT-2NT, you can't show invitational hand either. That's why, IF you would like to play it, you should use it only with a maximum hand.

2. I'm not a fan of using 3♣ as a relay to ask a 3 card suit, if you can show your own hand. I use 2♠ as a relay (to ask the entire shape) where you get more info about the minors, and later about the major suits. The full scheme is in some other thread.
I also don't agree with what mr1303 says:

FG 5-5: bid 1NT-2♥-2♠-4♥
FG 5+-4: use Smolen: 1NT-2♣-2♦-3M (4M-5+OM)
invitational with 5-4: transfer for 5 card, and bid the other major afterwards.
invitational with 5-5: i use a special bid for that: 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♦

[mr1303]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Maybe due to different styles.

I would have no problems opening 1NT (12-14) on something like

Ax
Kx
QJ10xx
Kxxx

Where opposite a 5-5 hand 3NT may well be the best place to play.l

For invitational/GF 5-4 I use stayman, and over 2D bid 2H/S if inv and 3H/S if GF.

I've never had any difficulties playing it this way, and so see no reason to change.

[drinbrasil]

Quote

hi again

Hi

Quote

A couple of questions here for discussion,

1st one is what is wrong with bidding 2nt to show 4/4 in majors after a 2 club stayman bid

Well, you cant use garbage stayman and imagine your pd have one invitional hand, he have to bid 3H for example, and if he have FG hand he have to bid 4H, but and when he have slam hand, how you will find the correct fit?

Good seqs:

1ST - 2C
2H - 3S --> fit H with slam interes
3H ---> invite
4H ---> to play

1ST - 2C
2S - 3H ---> fit S with slam interes
3S ---> invite
4S ---> to play

Quote

2nd one is after 1nt p 2c p 2d p 3c = asking for 3 of a major is this extended stayman and is it any good?

1ST - 2C
2D - 3C --> can be second stayman, but better for looking one minor or to show one minor...hands with 4major and 4/5 of a minor can be played with this....well, this is a complete system...

[luis]

#1 Because sometimes you have
xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, x and want to pass whatever pd bids to 2c.
And you can use 1n-2c;2d-2h to show a weak hand with both majors, opener corrects to 2s only with 2 hearts and 3 spades, thus finding at least a 7 card fit in a major.

#2 I agree with Free, 2s is the better way to relay after 1n-2c;2d to get the exact distribution of the nt opener, a simple follow up to the 2s relay:
2n = 4-4-3-2 shape
3c relay
3d = 3-2-4-4
3h = 2-3-4-4
3c = 5 cards (relay asks for doubleton)
3d = 5 cards (doubleton in a major, 3h asks)
3h = 3-3-4-3
3s = 3-3-3-4
3n = 3-3-5-2

[drinbrasil]

luis, on Jan 26 2004, 07:08 PM, said:

#1 Because sometimes you have
xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, x and want to pass whatever pd bids to 2c.
And you can use 1n-2c;2d-2h to show a weak hand with both majors, opener corrects to 2s only with 2 hearts and 3 spades, thus finding at least a 7 card fit in a major.

Quote

#2 I agree with Free, 2s is the better way to relay after 1n-2c;2d to get the exact distribution of the nt opener, a simple follow up to the 2s relay:
2n = 4-4-3-2 shape
    3c relay
          3d = 3-2-4-4
          3h = 2-3-4-4
3c = 5 cards (relay asks for doubleton)
3d = 5 cards (doubleton in a major, 3h asks)
3h = 3-3-4-3
3s = 3-3-3-4
3n = 3-3-5-2

And when the contract is 3NT the opponents know exactly to attack too

[Free]

I still think my continuation after 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠-? is still better than Luis' because it encompasses the so called 5-4 minor and 6 card minor.

And about that giving away to much info for defensive play: when do you ask for minors (and entire shape)? When you want to play a slam in whatever suit, so the defense will still not know enough since your hand is completely unknown!

[paulg]

sceptic, on Jan 17 2004, 10:51 AM, said:

hi again

A couple of questions here for discussion,

1st one is what is wrong with bidding 2nt to show 4/4 in majors after a 2 club stayman bid

2nd one is after 1nt p 2c p 2d p 3c = asking for 3 of a major is this extended stayman and is it any good?

Thanks again

I think you need to consider both questions in the context of your 1NT response structure.

If you play 4-suit transfers (e.g., Bridge Base - Advanced) then Stayman is the only way to make the invitational raise to 2NT, so you don't want partner bidding 2NT just to show 4-4 majors (unless it also shows a hand that would raise 2NT).

The points made by others about using 2♣ as a rescue mechanism are also valid. So personally I don't recommend extended stayman. I believe it is a relic from the days when people did not play (any) transfers over 1NT.

On the second question, it really depends if you have some other way to show a hand with strong clubs. In SAYC the 3♣ rebid is natural and game forcing. Playing 4-suit transfers there is the opportunity to find another meaning for it.

When I started playing at clubs (many moons ago) both extended stayman and stayman in doubt (SID) were popular ... but not amongst the players who spent time defining their 1NT response structures.

Cheers

Paul

[Chamaco]

I post this because it might be useful to some SAYC-2/1 players who will hapen to play with Italians.

In italy, beginners are taiught a different version of stayman:
a) it is forcing to game (not invitatonal)
it does not guarantee a 4 card major
c) it may contain a 5 cad major (since no Jacoby xfers are taught to beginners and 2 of a major would be SIGNOFF)

In this context, after
1NT:2C

a) 2D = balanced without 4 card major
2H/2S = 4 cd major, denies the other major
c) 2NT = five card minor (3C asks which minor)
d) 3C/3D = 4-4 major, minimum/maximum

I prefer the "normal" nonforcing stayman + transfers structure but I guess it is just a matter of taste.

[Free]

cardsharp, on Jan 27 2004, 05:35 PM, said:

When I started playing at clubs (many moons ago) both extended stayman and stayman in doubt (SID) were popular ... but not amongst the players who spent time defining their 1NT response structures.

Cheers

Paul

Very weird, because I've been finetuning my 1NT structure, and came up with some sort of extended stayman where we still have our garbage stayman, and could ask the entire shape, even some 5-4s and 6 card minors, all below 3NT! Ofcourse, it needs some memory work, but for ambitious bridgeplayers this shouldn't be a problem

[luis]

drinbrasil, on Jan 26 2004, 08:45 PM, said:

luis, on Jan 26 2004, 07:08 PM, said:

#1 Because sometimes you have
xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, x and want to pass whatever pd bids to 2c.
And you can use 1n-2c;2d-2h to show a weak hand with both majors, opener corrects to 2s only with 2 hearts and 3 spades, thus finding at least a 7 card fit in a major.

Quote

#2 I agree with Free, 2s is the better way to relay after 1n-2c;2d to get the exact distribution of the nt opener, a simple follow up to the 2s relay:
2n = 4-4-3-2 shape
    3c relay
          3d = 3-2-4-4
          3h = 2-3-4-4
3c = 5 cards (relay asks for doubleton)
3d = 5 cards (doubleton in a major, 3h asks)
3h = 3-3-4-3
3s = 3-3-3-4
3n = 3-3-5-2

And when the contract is 3NT the opponents know exactly to attack too

I find your comment very silly.

When the contract is 3NT you are not supossed to relay for exact distribution. Why relay if you know you will be playing 3NT ?
You use relays for full shape when you have slam chances, thus when you can't find what you need for slam 3NT and even 4NT are very safe contracts.

[paulg]

Free, on Jan 27 2004, 01:28 PM, said:

cardsharp, on Jan 27 2004, 05:35 PM, said:

When I started playing at clubs (many moons ago) both extended stayman and stayman in doubt (SID) were popular ... but not amongst the players who spent time defining their 1NT response structures.

Cheers

Paul

Very weird, because I've been finetuning my 1NT structure, and came up with some sort of extended stayman where we still have our garbage stayman, and could ask the entire shape, even some 5-4s and 6 card minors, all below 3NT! Ofcourse, it needs some memory work, but for ambitious bridgeplayers this shouldn't be a problem

Perhaps not that weird as I meant to be precise about the convention "Extended Stayman".

I also extend Stayman sequences with a relay structure probably similar to yours, but this is not extended stayman in the context of the question - "Extended Stayman" just had the concept of whether or not you have 5-card major with no additional definition - that is, the no additional work or memory version!

p