[luckyloser]

MPS

playing sayc you open 1d on:

♠ 5
♥ KQ94
♦ QJ93
♣ AT63

p responds 1♠, what now? 1NT or 2♣???

[helene_t]

I think orthodox SAYC is 2♣ but I don't like that. I suppose the reasoning is that 1NT must show a balanced hand, but that argument is polemic. The fact is that 1NT leaves one step more of biddingspace than does 2♣, and even if it can systematically be with a singleton ♠ it is stille more descriptive than 2♣. But you would need too catter for a singleton in your check-back structure (SAYC doesn't even have a check-back structure).

Case in point: if partner is weak with 5-4 majors we can still find our hearts fit if I rebid 1NT.

[Winstonm]

2C for me. I understand there is a growing wave that likes to bid NT with singletons, but this isn't my cup of tea. The purpose of any NT bid is to clearly define the limit and shape of your hand so that partner can make an intelligent decision as to where to place the contract - once you have limited your hand with a NT bid, partner is captain unless he makes an invitational bid.

If I bid 1N with this hand, partner will be unhappy with his 4S contract with:

AQxxxx, xx, Axx Kx

And there is no good reason to bid anything other than a direct 4S over 1N.

[mcphee]

1NT seems best. Bidding 2C could lead to a 4-2 D fit when responder is 2-3 in the minors, or doesn't anyone give false preference any longer?

[Winstonm]

Quote

Case in point: if partner is weak with 5-4 majors we can still find our hearts fit if I rebid 1NT.

My thinking here is if I am weak, who cares if I find a 4/4 fit? Unless you are a true matchpointaholic, devising a system to allow you to find the perfect partscore is self-defeating; the scoring method other than MPs is designed to reward game and slam bidding and minimize partscore accuracy.

I would, with a weak hand, be as content to rebid 2S with a weak 5/4 in the certain knowledge that I was facing at worst a 5/2 fit.

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on Jan 24 2007, 08:57 AM, said:

BIG fan of rebidding 1N with this hand type. I don't like 4-2 fits and I don't like missing 4-4 or 5-4 heart fits much.

I also don't see why Winston's hand has to bid 4S directly, that hand can just go through NMF and then bid spades. If partner still bids NT why wouldn't we want to play in NT?

What's the point in giving all that information to the opponents when you know the contract you want to play?

1D-1S
1N-2D*
2H-2S
2N-3N

1D-1S
1N-4S

If you were on lead, which auction gives you the greatest chance of "guessing" right?

(Youth...they like to bid a lot.)

Quote

doesn't anyone give false preference any longer?

I never hold 2/2 minors. If I ever did, I'd have to rebid my ugly Jxxxx and take my chances or guess. Nothing is perfect but my preference is to not worry to much about getting the weak hand bidding perfect.

Also, in my example hand notice how much better the 4S contract becomes if opener held singleton J or K or spades. I'm not saying never bid 1N, but I'd like to have a singleton honor card to do so.

[helene_t]

It's not only about finding the best partscore. Game and slam bidding becomes inaccurate as well with a 2♣ rebid. Suppose it starts
1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥*
3♥-?

* FSF

You have now defined your shape (could also have been 0454, maybe 4445, 1453), but you range is still 11-18 HCPs and since all five denominations are still open neither cue-bidding nor serious 3NT are available, maybe not even Last Train.

Do you play FSF as GF or only invite+? If it's GF you can miss 4♥ when responder has 5-4 or 6-4 majors and invitational strength. If it's only invite+ you can't even show your shape as in the above auction because it might take you too high.

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on Jan 24 2007, 09:07 AM, said:

How will you get to the wrong game rebidding 1N? The crux of this matter is about partscores, not games. Hopefully no matter what you rebid if partner has a game force you can find the right contract.

BUT since you insist on talking about game bidding, partner could easily have 5 spades, 4 hearts and an invite. If you bid 1D-1S-2C, partner will have an easy 2N bid and you will pass. However if you rebid 1N partner will bid some kind of checkback and invite in hearts which you will accept. So if you have a low HCP game with a 4-4 heart fit you can find game by bidding NT.

Seriously I don't think it will matter much what you do if partner is about to drive to game. You have enough room easily figure everything out (1D-1S-1N-2D-2H-2S-3C, or 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H, it doesn't matter too much). For partscore bidding I would much rather just rebid NT. You're right, I might on occasion play a 5-1 but I bet it's far more likely that you will play a 4-2 (on an auction where partner will go out of his way to false preference).

The argument is not about whether there is a scientific method to bid the hand but if that method overall is superior.

I certainly appreciate your points that you can - to a degree - have your cake and eat it, too, by being more scientific, but at the same time that bit of science also paints a picture of your hands to the opponents who will be leading and defending.

Maybe my bias comes from reading too much Terrence Reese while learning to play - he was a huge advocate for "bashing" and leaving opps in the dark.

I seem to remember reading that Hamman said "Bobby and I tend to bash into game if we think we can make it."

Maybe it's the age thing - we old guys still like to make the opps guess. (Probably because we don't play as well as you, JL, so we have to get lucky.)

[ArcLight]

Justin,
If using NMF (or some kind of Checkback), I can see your point about 1NT.

What if you don't use NMF (or some kind of checkback)?
Would you then still bid 1NT?

[Winstonm]

helene_t, on Jan 24 2007, 09:09 AM, said:

It's not only about finding the best partscore. Game and slam bidding becomes inaccurate as well with a 2♣ rebid. Suppose it starts
1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥*
3♥-?

* FSF

You have now defined your shape (could also have been 0454, maybe 4445, 1453), but you range is still 11-18 HCPs and since all five denominations are still open neither cue-bidding nor serious 3NT are available, maybe not even Last Train.

Do you play FSF as GF or only invite+? If it's GF you can miss 4♥ when responder has 5-4 or 6-4 majors and invitational strength. If it's only invite+ you can't even show your shape as in the above auction because it might take you too high.

Yes, but this is all academic if we do what we were supposed to do in the first place: open 1H. But I guess now I'm REALLY showing my age.

The debate stems from the concept of playing 5-card majors - a Goren player would have no trouble with this hand and it's auto 1H bid; however, with the advent of 5-card majors, we have other problems with which to deal.

We are forced to find a minor suit bid with 1444 and a rebid over 1S. Your points are well taken and it is simply a matter of which way do you want to obfuscate the bidding from here - 1N has good arguments; simplicity has something going for it as well. The important thing to understand is neither is perfect, that you and partner have the same ideas, and you accept with a shrug your bad results that may occur from time-to-time due to your choice.

It's hard to argue with Justin's reasoning, and 1N may well be the better bid as it gives you more ways to find the right contract and the only downside is the added information to opponents. (Like I said - too much Terrence Reeese influence in my youth.)

[brianshark]

I'm not a big fan of rebidding NT with singletons in partner's suit. It's not so much because I think that 2♣ is better that 1NT in this particular hand (this shape is awkward and there will be some lie somewhere), it's that I like my partner to know that when I rebid NT, I have at least 2 cards in his suit, always, without exception.

[ohioply]

2c for me - i don't want to show a doubleton spade by bidding 1nt, rather show my 2nd suit

[pclayton]

1N. I'm a big believer that a 2♣ rebid should promise 5♦'s.

I don't automatically takeout to 2♠ holding a 5 bagger either over 1N. Somehow we manage to always land on our feet

[mike777]

Wow alot of people do not mind rebidding 1nt with a stiff in partner's suit. Anyone for up for a simulation or something?

[EricK]

If you are planning to rebid 1NT isn't it better to open 1♣ rather than 1♦ (just in case partner has a weakish hand with ♣ support)?