[inquiry]

In the multi-2D thread discussing how to deal with opponents inteference if playing weak two or balanced strong or strong 3 suiter, I mentioned that I include the three suitered hands in my 2C opening bid.

I got this treatment from Chris Ryall's webpage, and it is part of a co-ordinated system. The bid balanced hands start with 2D or 2NT, so a 2C bid doesn't include those (unless a monster so you can afford jump to 3NT). This frees up a 2NT rebid by opener to show the three suiter. 3♣ by responder now ask for short suit and number of losers, and when opener show it, responder can then use short suit/NT relays to ask about number of losers and exact shape (4441 or 4450), number of controls, then lowerst suit without a queen.

I have found this to be a most excellent weapon. Imagine this pair of hands Misho and I played recently...

S-AJx
H-Ax
D-xxxxx
C-JT9

S-KTxx
H-x
D-AQJT
C-AQxx

South's hand just qualifies as a "strong" three suiter (minimum controls is 5, minimum hcp is 16, max number of losers is 5). Bidding was....

RHO South LHO Misho
Pass 2C Pass 2D
2H 2NT Pass 3C (2NT = three suiter)
Pass 3D Pass 3H (3C=ask, 3D=short H, 4-5 loser)
Pass 3S Pass 5D (3H ask, 3S=4144, 5losers)
Pass Pass Pass

As you can see, if the diamond hook is off, 3NT is in a world of hurt, but 5D is virtually iron clad, and 6D will make anytime 3NT is making, then 6D also makes (5D, 1H, 1Hruff, 2S, and 3C). Misho could have bid 3NT to ask for controls, my bid would have been 4C to show 5, then if he wanted, he could bid 4H to ask for lowest suit without QUEEN, I would have bid 4S. Here he knows all. I have either Kxxx x AQJx AQxx or possibly xxxx x AQJx AKQx or xxxx x AKQJ AQxx) actually with such a weak spade suit, I would not open the last two with 2Cs, since to get to my 16 hcp and 5 loser hand. So he would know that slam is 50% (find diamond king) on the first two hands, and 50% on the third (find the club king).

To read more about this nice treatment, see Chris Ryall's page at... (but remember, you need to be able to describe balanced 22-24 point hands some other way than 2C-2D-2NT, to play this)

http://www.chrisryal.../clubs-4441.htm

There was a nice challenge the champ hand in Bridge World circa 1981 that Woosely and Mansfield were bidding. The hand pair was perfect for this method. The hands were something like....

Quote

AQxx    KJ
AQxx    KJTxx
ATxx    xxx
x       Axx

Where 7H is the top spot (getting more than 10) and 6H was an average. The bidding with the three suit thing makes this a piece of cake.

2C-2D-2NT(3suit)-3C(which?)-3NT(shortC, 4-5L), 4C(dist?)-4D(4441, 5L)-4NT(controls)-5D(6controls)-5N(queens?)-6D(no diamond QUEEN)-7H....

Why 7H, WEST would not show C-K as control, so has three aces, with no diamond Q (or king). His 5 losers must be, 1C, 2D, and 1 each in the majors. So EAST can "see" west as having AQxx AQxx Axxx x.... and can count 13 tricks, 4S, 5H, 1D, 1C, and 2 club ruffs. This was the first hand my partner and I put to the three suit test (he found it and emailed me the responder's hand), and we have never looked back since then.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben!
My bid was 5DI, because I had 2 cover cards against your 5 losers. My 5th DI can cover a loser too, but may also not. A HE is duplication despite he all time make a trick, because it is in short suit. J109 in CL are perfect and I evaluate it for 1/2 cover card. Yes, I thoght about 6 DI but by my count it is max 50% and I like to play slams with at least 50%. Additional expected finesse in DI probably will be not sucsessful, because I expect shortage in opp who overcall 2SP. Singleton K DI on side was surprise for me, sorry .
Misho

[inquiry]

Quote

Additional expected finesse in DI probably will be not sucsessful, because I expect shortage in opp who overcall 2SP. Singleton K DI on side was surprise for me, sorry .

No need to be sorry my friend. I rate 5Diamonds as a great imp contract on these hands. We have 50% chance of picking up vul game swing against the field (if diamond hook is off), and we lose just an imp or two to those in 3NT if it is on. In fact we won imps because quite a few failed to bid any game. I consider 5D a sucessful auction. :-) I pointed out what else you might have tried as an illustration of the bidding on Chris's page... as an example. I too would have bid 5D's.

ben

[inquiry]

I will post some "4441 and 4450" hands from BBO with the results for you to practice bidding with your partner (however you bid them).

Dealer East, IMPs today BBO
Vuln. All

Quote

            S 83           
            H QT87         
            D A985         
            C KJ4         

S K52                        S AJ97
H KJ9652                    H A
D Q73                        D KJT6
C 2                          C A653

            S QT64         
            H 43           
            D 42           
            C QT987     

West East
2CL 2DI
2NT 4HE
Pass

4HE here is to play, and excludes some hand types that would have responded 3HE or 3NT to 2C's. Shows a limited hand, with 6+ hearts/ How did the BBO field do on this pair of hands? 4HE is cold, 4SP makes with careful play, 3NT has no chance.

3NE-3   300   6.2
6HE-3   300   6.2
3NE-3   300   6.2
3NE-2   200   3.87
3NW-2   200   3.87
3NW-2   200   3.87
4HW-2   200   3.87
3NE-1   100   1.4
3NE-1   100   1.4
4HW-1   100   1.4
4SE-1   100   1.4
3NE-1   100   1.4
4HW=   -620   -10.27
4HW=   -620   -10.27
4HW=   -620   -10.27
4SE=   -620   -10.27

[kfgauss]

Quote

Misho could have bid 3NT to ask for controls

Surely you keep 3NT as to play. Perhaps 4C serves this purpose (i.e. next step, excluding 3NT)?

Andy

[inquiry]

Quote

Quote

Misho could have bid 3NT to ask for controls

Surely you keep 3NT as to play. Perhaps 4C serves this purpose (i.e. next step, excluding 3NT)?

Andy

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the feedback. The statement is right, I am not creative enough to come up with the scheme myself, so I follow the method as outlined by Chris Rydall in the link I gave above. Where he said "Second ask - in lower of NT/short suit is for Blue Club Controls on 4/5/6", If you want to play 3NT when partner shows a short suit that you actually hold, just bid 3NT... don't ask for losers.

Ben

[inquiry]

Dlr: South
Vul: None
            
North
       S AT4
       H QT98
       D AK984
       C T
West             East
S KJ97          S 86
H AK32          H 75
D --          D QT5
C AQJ73        C K96542

       South
       S Q532
       H J64
       D J7632
       C 8

This was a moscito hand bid very nicely by Ron (The Hog) and Richard (hgorthar) on July 25th of this year. I would tell you that this auction requires you to look at Richard’s HTML document for full explanation of their bids to see how they got to slam (their auction at the bottom of this post), but they have modified the meaning of the 2C response since July, so you are on your own figuring it out their auction from last summer.

The 4441/4450 three suiter auction starting with 2C would be.

West   North   East   South
2C   Pass   2D   Pass
2NT   Pass   3C   Pass
4C   Pass   4D   Pass
5C   Pass   5D   Pass
5S   Pass   6C   AllPass
         

2C – forcing, 2D – semipositive or better 2NT – 3 suiter
3C – describe hand
4C – short D, 4-5 loser
4D – ask to describe losers/shape
5C – void in diamonds, 4 losers
5D – Controls? Good day partner will have SAKxx HAKxx D-void CAxxx
5S = 6 controls
6C = if south showed 8 controls (hand above) grand slam would be bid

Richard and Ron’s moscito auction probably discovered as much if not more than the three suit auction above. This was their auction.

Richard   Inquiry   Ron   South
1C   Pass   2C    Pass
2D   Pass   2N    Pass
4C   Pass   4D   Pass
5C   Pass   6C   AllPass

[inquiry]

2003 World championship. BB QF 4st Segment
A3
T985
QJ95
KJ3

KQ95
AK43
AKT82
--

Poland and USA I in 6H, USA II and Taipei in 6D,
South  West  North  East
2C  Pass  2D  Pass
2NT  Pass  3C  Pass
3S  Pass  3NT  Pass
4H  Pass  4NT  Pass
5D  Pass  5NT  Pass
6H  Pass  Pass  Pass

2NT=3 suiter
3C = ask
3S = short minor, 2-3 Losers
3NT/4NT/5NT = all ask
4H = 4450, 4540, or 5440 with 3 losers
5D = 7 controls (italian controls A=2, K=1)
6H = I have DQ but not HQ.

Change souths hand to S-Axxx H-AKQx D-ATT82 (that is same hand but major suit queen being the heart queen, grand slam in hearts would be bid.

Ben

[EricK]

Quote

Dlr: South
Vul: None
            
North
       S AT4
       H QT98
       D AK984
       C T
West             East
S KJ97          S 86
H AK32          H 75
D --          D QT5
C AQJ73        C K96542

       South
       S Q532
       H J64
       D J7632
       C 8

This was a moscito hand bid very nicely by Ron (The Hog) and Richard (hgorthar) on July 25th of this year. I would tell you that this auction requires you to look at Richard’s HTML document for full explanation of their bids to see how they got to slam (their auction at the bottom of this post), but they have modified the meaning of the 2C response since July, so you are on your own figuring it out their auction from last summer.

The 4441/4450 three suiter auction starting with 2C would be.

West   North   East   South
2C   Pass   2D   Pass
2NT   Pass   3C   Pass
4C   Pass   4D   Pass
5C   Pass   5D   Pass
5S   Pass   6C   AllPass
         

2C – forcing, 2D – semipositive or better 2NT – 3 suiter
3C – describe hand
4C – short D, 4-5 loser
4D – ask to describe losers/shape
5C – void in diamonds, 4 losers
5D – Controls? Good day partner will have SAKxx HAKxx D-void CAxxx
5S = 6 controls
6C = if south showed 7 controls (hand above) grand slam would be bid

Richard and Ron’s moscito auction probably discovered as much if not more than the three suit auction above. This was their auction.

Richard   Inquiry   Ron   South
1C   Pass   2C    Pass
2D   Pass   2N    Pass
4C   Pass   4D   Pass
5C   Pass   6C   AllPass

How could you not bid with the North hand over a strong club? If the bidding is at 4D by the time it comes back to West it is much harder to reach 6C.

Eric

[inquiry]

Well, I choose not to bid for a selfish reason. I was trying to learn moscito, and not bidding gave me an opportunity to see their auction in action.

As a side benefit to my not bidding, when I showed up with D-AK long (I lead the King and then threw some away). I also showed up with short club and four hearts to the QT98. So when Richard finally did play a spade after extensive experrt discover play, he logically played me not to have the SPADE ACE, so he played a spade to the KING-ACE, and I returned a spade to the queen for down one. So they had a great auction, but I got a great result. Sometimes, not bidding works out better than bidding. :-)

Ben

[EricK]

Quote

Well, I choose not to bid for a selfish reason. I was trying to learn moscito, and not bidding gave me an opportunity to see their auction in action.

As a side benefit to my not bidding, when I showed up with D-AK long (I lead the King and then threw some away). I also showed up with short club and four hearts to the QT98. So when Richard finally did play a spade after extensive experrt discover play, he logically played me not to have the SPADE ACE, so he played a spade to the KING-ACE, and I returned a spade to the queen for down one. So they had a great auction, but I got a great result. Sometimes, not bidding works out better than bidding. :-)

Ben

Good answer!

Eric

[inquiry]

Quote

ª -T874        ª - KQJ3
© - T932       © - AQJ8
¨ - KT72       ¨ - void
§ - 3             § - AKQ74

Here is a hand Misho and I had last night, Dealer WEST

Ben Misho
Pass 2C
2D.....2NT
3C.....3S
3N.....4C
4H.....Pass

2C followed by 2NT showed the 3 suiter hand that is the topic of this thread. 2D was semipositive or better (2H would have been immediate double neg). 3C was an asking bid, and 3S showed a 2-3 loser hand, with one short minor (either). At this point I should bid 4H as either my diamond king or club singleton will not be as useful as I would like. But partner could have AKQJ AKQJ8 void Qxxx after all, so I could also explore. So I bid 3N, and to no surprise, he shows short diamond. with 4C bid. Now I could bid 4D to find out about his hand. His response would have been 5C showing a 5440 hand (don't know which is the five-card suit). However, at this time I woke up and decided to play it save, as many might not even get to game, so I signed off. Reverse my partners red suits (a heart void), we are clearly in 6SPADES. How did the field do? Some had problems with the East hand, but landed on there feet (at least I knew about the level we could play and that we had double major fit)... here are few of the other auctions...

2C-2D-3H-4H-Pass (wow.... )
2C-2D-3C-3N-4H-Pass (change DK for SA and this isn't happy stop)
2C-2D-3C-3N-4C-4H-Pass (no idea how opener can pass 4H here)
2C-2H (neg) - 3C - 3N - Pass
2C - 2D - 3C - 3N - Pass
1C - all pass
2C - 2D - 3C - 3D - 3H - 3S - 6S - Pass (no idea why 3S instead of 4H).
2C - 2H - 3C - 3H - 4N - 5C - 6H - Pass

The slams are not that bad a proposition, just don't have a prayer on the actual layout.

[inquiry]

Quote

Hand from today, Helen Online Institu-tourney by teddex
Sunday Pairs, board 2

Dealer East
Vuln. NS

            S 63           
            H A           
            D A9743       
            C 98643       

S QT754                S 98
H Q875                  H J643
D T82                    D KQJ5
C 7                        C T52

            S AKJ2
            H KT92         
            D 6               
            C AKQJ         

2Cl 2Di
2Nt 3Cl
4Cl 4Di
4Nt 5Di
5NT 6Cl
Ps

2Cl = three suiter that is topic of this thread
2Di = semipositive or better
2NT = any three suiter
3Cl = Tell me your short suit
4Cl = short Diamonds, 4-5 losers
4Di = tell me more about your distribution and losers
4NT = 4S-4H-1D-4C with exactly four losers
5Di = controls?
5NT = seven so missing only diamond king.
6Cl = you have AKxx Kxxx A AKxx plus one queen. Even if you have, the club Queen, it is not clear I can ruff out two heart losers and two spade losers, so six is enough.

Over 4NT, a bid of 6Clubs would be enough. The slam was hard to bid in the tourney.

[inquiry]

BBO Imps final, hosted by rmoyster,
Board 1,
None vul

KJ43
95
T54
AQ97

AT85
AK83
KJ93
4

Pss-Pss-2Cl-Pss
2Di-Pss-2NT-Pss
3Cl-Pss-3NT-Pss
4Cl-Pss-4Di-Pss
4Sp-all pass

2C = forcing
2D = semipositive or better
2N = three suiter, at least 15hcp, 5+ controls, 5 losers or less
3C = asking bid
3N = short club, 4-5 losers
4C = asking bid
4D = 5 losers, 4-4-4-1 distribution
4S = spade king, Club ACE, and maybe heart ruff only cover 3 of 5 possible losers

Reasonably enough, everyone got to 4S even without this bidding convention. Now swap south’s minors, and the bidding would be…

KJ43
95
T54
AQ97

AT85
AK83
4
KJ93

Pss-Pss-2Cl-Pss
2Di-Pss-2NT-Pss
3Cl-Pss-4Cl-Pss
4Di-Pss-4He-Pss
4NT-Pss-5Di-Pss
6Sp-Pss-Pss-Pss

2C through 3C same as above,
4C = short diamond, 4-5 loser
4D = asking bid
4H = 5 loser, 4-4-1-4
4N = control asking bid
5D = 6 controls

Over 5D, south knows that the club AQ and spade King cover losers, and the doubleton heart and/or the spade JACK might cover one of the other losers. It is clear that opener has a hand like Axxx AKxx x Kxxx with no queens (since with a queen that would be four losers). Since the 2C bid shows at least 15 hcp, there has to be a jack of clubs or jack of hearts. Or, he might have Axxx AKJx A Qxxx, with diamond ACE the hand wouldn’t be a 2C opener with just the club Queen. Responder can bid 6S or 6C knowing it is roughly 50% or can bail out in 5S.

Ben

[inquiry]

Scoring: IMP

---

West    North   East    South
                Pass    1♦      
Pass    Pass    Pass    

I had decided to top posting in this thread due to lack of interest, but my opponents playing in 1♦ missing an excellent 6♠ contract, not to mention getting to game prompted me to make one more pitch for this bidding method.. .here is how the bidding should have gone....

West North East South
          Pass 2♣
Pass 2♦ Pass 2NT
Pass  3♣  PAss 3♦
Pass 3♥ Pass 4♣
Pass     4♥     Pass     5♦6♠ all pass

2NT = minor 3 suiter
3♣ = which
3♦ = short ♥, 4-5 loser
3♥ = define hand
4♦ = 4 losers, 4♠-1♥-4♦-4♣
4♥ = slam still possible, tell me controls
5♦ = starting with 5... steps show controls, this is 8....
6♠ = at worse on ♠ Q find... you have, 3 ACES and two kings, (if you have 4ACES, you must have two queens) and slam still a fair bet.

Ben

[MarceldB]

inquiry, on Dec 10 2003, 05:11 PM, said:

I will post some "4441 and 4450" hands from BBO with the results for you to practice bidding with your partner (however you bid them).

Hi All,

I do not know if my kind of posting (HUM system) will be in disharmony with the intention of this board for Non-natural system discussion or the general interest of most of it's members.
Nevertheless I take the freedom to show you following:

Prefering to start at a very low level with those strong 4441's and lower as a Pass will not be possible ;-)
Perhaps you will be interested how , without using the 2C bid, a sequence can be, based on a 13+ Pass for the given 4441 ++ hands in this thread.

All bid sequences based on "bidding contest bidding". Up to you if you want to take more risk.

AQxx
AQxx
Axxx
x

KJ
KJTxx
xxx
Axx

•=North starts the bidding

• Pass 13+ any shape
1C =part 6-11 balanced OR 12+ any
• 2H s/v C and a 4441 or 5?440 13-16p.
2NT= relay
• 3NT 4-4-4-1 and a max 15-16p.
4C = Slam Askng Bid Hearts (HSCD order)
• 5C 3 Aces of 5 + Queen of Hearts
5D = Suit Asking Bid Spades
• 5NT K or AQ
7H
•Pass
-------------------------

K52
KJ9652
Q73
2

AJ97
A
KJ65
A653

• 1C 8-12 with any s/v and a 4441 up to 7330 shape
1R = positive relay
• 1H s/v H any shape OR s/v C then L=Major or any 5/5
1S = relay
• 1NT s/v C variant
2C = relay
• 2S L= Hearts and a 1-suiter 6331 up to 7330
2NT= relay
• 3C 6331 or 7321 with a minimum
4H = you are a pessimist, because you can do a try without any risk
• Pass

because with
Kx
KQxxxxx
Qxx
x
so the perfect hand, but not in this case:

• 3C 6331 or 7321 with a minimum
3D = relay
• 3H 6-6-3-1
4D End signal
• 4H
Pass

or with
Kxx
KQxxxx
Qxx
x
this is the next perfect hand, needs a 3/3 break in trump only,
but not in this case:

• 3H 6-6-3-1
3S = Slam asking Bid Hearts
• 3NT 1 of 5 Aces and NO trump Queen
4H
• Pass
now you have reach your real legal limit
------------

KQ95
AK43
AKT82
-

A3
T985
QJ95
KJ3

• P 13+ any shape
1D 0-5p. OR 6-11p. (can be 1 Ace or any K+Q only too!)
4333/4432, 5332 then no 2 Toph., 5M4?22
• 1H 13+ 5c OR 23+ 4432/4333
2H = 4432 10-11 and of good quality
• 2S relay
3C = 4c D + 4cMajor
• 3S Start control bidding except Diamonds
3NT = A or K of spades
• 4C further relay for distribution
4D = 4c H
• 4H relay
4S = 2-4-4-3
• 4NT Slam asking bid Hearts
5C = 1 of 5 Aces no QH
• 5D Suit asking bid Diamonds
5S = Queen or AK (if no Q then 5H= non or KQ)
•6H
Pass
------------

KJ97
AK32
-
AQJ73

86
75
QT5
K96542

• P 13+ any shape
1C= 6-11 part balanced OR 12+ any (Ace or any K+Q = 6-11!)
• 1D relay (too strong for a s/void opening = 13-16p)
1S= Clubs if 5332 then 2 Toph. , if 6322 no toph. info, or 5C4?22
• 1NT relay
2C = minimum 6-9, if 6322 then no 2 toph.
• 2D relay
2H = a real min minimum
• 2S relay
3C = the 6322 shape
• 3D relay
3H = 2-2-3-6
• 3S Slam asking Bid, Clubs = trump
4C = 1 Ace of 5 (Queen is not possible regarding the 2C Bid)
• 4D Suit asking bid H (Queen of S is enough or QH with no Spade lead)
4H = non or KQ
• 4S Suit asking bid Spades
4NT= non or KQ
• 5C I've done my best
PASS

lucky for no QH, because the contract is then in the wrong hand unfortunately
---------------------

T874
T932
KT72
3

KQJ3
AQJ8
-
AKQ74

• 1D 0-7p. any shape (not an extreme with 6-7p.)
no any A + K=8-12p.!
1H = 13+ any 5c? or 23+ with a 4333/4432
• 1S 0-5 p.
1NT = ++
• 3H 4-4-4-1 0-5 p.
4H = Slam Asking Bid Hearts, but 1st.step = Pass *
• Pass

if the King bid 6 Spades the best contract with a diamond lead
*If you want to play game only bid 4D= End Signal, if you want to inform for
King/Queen of hearts, then bid 4H,with NON, partner will pass.
If you don't want that , bid 4C firstly = a relay, than afterwards asking for Heart
value is forcing
----------------------

AKJ2
KT92
6
AKQJ

63
A
A9743
98643

• Pas 13+ any shape
1H= s/v H any shape OR s/v C L=Major both 6-11 points
(can be 1 Ace only or any K+Q!)
• 1S relay
2NT = s/v H and 5/5 D+C
• 3C relay
3D = 2-1-5-5 and a minimum
• 3H Slam asking Bid C (if equal length then HSCD order,
same if no known distribution)
4D = 2 Aces of 5 no Queen C
• 6C there is a minimum so no QS possible for 7C
Pass
----------------------

KJ43
95
T54
AQ97

AT85
AK83
KJ93
4

• 1H 8-12 4333/4432, 5?332 no 2 toph., 5M4?22
1S = relay
• 1NT 8-10 5m332, or 4432 /4333
2K= 2nd positive relay
• 2H good 9 or 10 4432 (the 4333 =2S bid, if R = 4333 too, you can end in 2NT!)
2S= relay
• 2NT 4cC + 4c?
3C = relay
• 3S 4-2-3-4
4D= End Signal
• 4H obligatory
4S = to play
• Pass

Partner must have KQ Spades, NO Club values, ànd AQ of Diamonds, makes a 11 pointer
any slem investigation is useless therefore, see f.e.

4C = slam asking bid Spades
• 4S 2 Aces of 5, no Queen of spades
PASS

or you can bid
• 2H=good 9 or 10 4432
3C= C+H+S stopper asking
• 3S = Club + Spade stopper no Heart stopper

if a 4c Diamonds you have a problem
by bidding 4C= distribution relay, so Pass will be the best alternative?

Because of the extended handling of the 1H Opening with fine diviations of the pointranges ànd quality you do not miss something frequently.

My Credo is that the balanced hand should be the relayer ®, but there must be a balance too between the two hands regarding the pointranges.
After an 8-12 balanced opening and R has a s/v he can not bid it in a relay sequence. (apart from natural bidding)
And after Pass (13+) and 1D (could be a part of the balanced 6-11p.) either.

I can't have it all, no system is perfect, but I'm happy and can live with it.

I hope I did not have bored you with these sequences and

my best regards,
Marcel

www. : REGRESsion (WOS based on Regres but extensively modified)

http://members.ams.c...der4/index.html
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