[the hog]

This cute hand gave me much enjoyment in the Master's Teams last night. Hands reversed for convenience

AK7
J7652
T
AJ83

632
AK
AQ842
Q62

You are playing 3NT on the T of H lead after a relay auction. Defenders know that you have a 3253 shape in that order, and your lho has doubled Ds at one step in the auction. (Pity you are not playing 2D XX).
Plan your play.

[inquiry]

Potential Spoiler

I normally don't respond to beginner/intermediate problems, or at least not until everyone has had a chance to solve it. This time, however, it is my believe that the technically right solution to Good #6 involving a highly specific sequence of plays that is above beginner or intermediate level, stepping up to high advanced level or even expert level (of course, rate myself only advanced, so I think advanced players can get it right).  

Therefore, I am going to go ahead and explain what I see in this problem and how I would have played it.  But I will try to explain my play following jjsb's theory of playing: count sure winners, count possible winners, take information from the lead and the bidding, then find a sound line.

First off, sure winners. S-AK, H-AK, D-A, C-A, and you can surely force a second club winner by, for intance play a CLUB to the JACK. It either wins, or your QUEEN has just become a winner. So you just have to plan for where you other tricks are going to come from. Like in good #5, it will not be in spades - you have only two winners there. But the third spade maybe very important for a throw in situation. A long HEART is all but assured (unless suit is 5-1), if you want to play for it and maybe even two extra hearts if the suit splits 3-3. Clubs provides a possible extra trick (if suit suit is 3-3 or West has doubleton CLUB-Kx). In light of the 2Dx by WEST, it is best not to count on the diamond hook winning, but the QUEEN of diamonds becomes a very real threat against WEST if you can throw him in. And if you can wrinkle an extra club, then the heart JACK actually becomes a throw-in threat against EAST (if suit is 2-4 or 5-1). BTW, if WEST has long Diamonds and 4+Hearts, both suits are throw in threats against him.

Thus the possible lines.
1) Take two extra hearts by cashing the AK of hearts, cross to dummy, and give a heart (hoping suit is divided 3-3 or EAST has HEART Qx doubleton.

2) Find clubs 3-3, and after establishing a club, and eventually throw the opponents in with a spade for an eventual forced HEART lead from EAST (if split 2-4 or 1-5) of diamond LEAD from west to give you your 9th trick.

3) Catch WEST with CLUB-Kx doubleton, in which case you can revert to option #2 above.

Here is my line of play. First, I would cash the HEART-AK. If West shows out on the second round, we go for item #2 above. If the heart queen falls, I then play small to the CLUB JACK, and when that wins, I play heart jack and a heart for sure 9 tricks.

However, let's assume nothing interesting happens in hearts: so they are either 2-4 or 3-3. I now play a specific line of play that requires precise sequences of cards. After the CLUB JACK wins, I will cash exactly one TOP SPADE honor. Then I will lead the DIAMOND TEN and let it run to WEST's expected JACK (and severing the connection between dummy and my hand!!). West can't lead a heart, club or diamond, so he will return a spade. If it is the SPADE QUEEN, I duck in dummy. If it is any other SPADE I win the dummy's last high spade. Now I cash the club ACE.

Here are the positions I play for. 1) West 4-2-5-2. 2) West 2-2-5-4, 3) West 3-2-5-3, 4) West 2-2-6-3, 5) West 2-2-7-2 (east would have shown out on first diamond). In all of these  distributions, After I cash the club ACE, I continue with a club (no club entry to EAST in any of these situations).

If east had a doubleton club=KING, then the club queen wins giving me my 8th trick. I then cash the DIAMOND ACE and exit a spade (if I still have one... remember if WEST lead SPADE Queen earlier i ducked it, so I will now be out of spades if he continued a spade.. in this case, I cash D-Ace and exit a small diamond and will win the DIAMOND Queen to trick 13). Who ever wins the last black suit trick will be endplayed into leading a red card. West away from Kx into my Qx, or East away from heart Q8 into dummy's J7, gaining my ninth trick.

If West had 4 CLUBS, he can win the two clubs, but he is out of major suit cards, so with five diamonds left, he will lead a diamond from his K9xx into my AQ8x. I will win the diamond as cheaply as possible (this catches his partner's last diamond, since I ducked one earlier), and now I lead my smallest diamond, forcing WEST to win, and he is endplayed again in diamonds.

If clubs are 3-3. West will win the club king and if he started with SPADE Qxx (since we ducked the queen lead or won a small lead) he is either out of spades, or he has the SPADE QUEEN left and the spade suit is blocked, so he is once again endplayed in the diamond ending giving us three diamond winners.  

Some other hands, were hearts are 3-3, it is obviously better just to duck a heart at sometime while you still have an entry to dummy. But from the bidding and the opening lead, I think West has five+diamonds, the Spade QUEEN and club King. Thus, I believe it is more likely that the heart Ten lead was a shot at your known short suit, when WEST held short in hearts. In fact, the above lines much more clear if WEST shows out on the second round of hearts. And BTW, the line of HAK, CJ, SA, DT works against vitrually all distributions, but hearts 3-3, including even if it WEST who has four hearts (this time to QT9x). But even if hearts are 3-3, this line can work if West has SPADE-QJ or Qx and fails to unblock.  For example if West is 2-3-5-4, with QJ of spades, when you duck the spade QUEEN exit. West is endplayed. A heart, diamond or club give you your game going trick easily.

Congradulations to The_Hog for an exciting hand to study, but I really wonder if he had in mind my line above, cashing honors, cutting off communications between the two hands, and such? If not, maybe I overlooked something simple. If so (and clearly he may), then he used somewhat poor judgement posting this to the beginner/intermedate forum instead of to the expert/advanced or to the "interesting hands" forum. Still, I found it fun.

Ben

[the hog]

The reason this hand was posted to this forum is that while it is difficult it is also an instructive teaching hand in that it shows that you can listen to the opposition bidding and deduce what lines may work and what may not work.

Ben is on the right track.

                                AK7
                                J7652
                                T
                               AJ83

Jxx                                             QTxx
Tx                                              Q9xx
KJ9xx                                         xx
xxx                                             Kxx


                              632
                              AK
                             AQ842
                             Q62

Due to west's x of D in the auction, we can assume that the Ds are lying badly. The T of H lead is also suggestive that h will not break - remember that the opps know your exact shape. West's failure to lead a S suggests a short holding 3 or less in that suit. We hope he is
3 2 5/6 3/2 with K of C or maybe 3253 4252 - latter unlikely, see below.

If you can bring in C for 3 tricks you are almos home - eg playing W for Kx or a 3-3 break

Win the first H and play a C to the J. This loses and a D is returned.

If C are 3-3 you have 8 tricks, but you must remove East's exit cards in D to perhaps force him to lead away from the H Q. Duck the D. W wins the J and returns another H.

It is now certain that H are 4-2 else W is helping you establish the H suit. Win the 2nd H. Cash the A of D to remove East's exit card - very important!!

Play Q of C, C to the A - all follow. The position which you should be able to read is as follows

                                        AKx
                                        Jx
                                        void
                                        x
               xxx                                        xxxx
               void                                       Q9
               K9x
                                    xxx
                                    void
                                    Qxx

Play dummy's last C. What does E throw? If he throws a H, play a H setting up your J. If he plays a S, play A K and another S, caring little who wins the last S trick. If E, he can cash a H and then concede a trick to your H knave; if west, he can cash the K of D and then concede a trick to the Q of D.

A pick up for you? Not at all. At the other table, the opposition misbid to 4H in an uncontested transfer auction. With no clues to guide him, your team mate led a D from KJ. You lose an IMP on the board. rofl

[inquiry]

It is a better problem, I think,when the club JACK wins. But when the club JACK loses and a Diamond comes back, The_hog's solution, as nice as it is, isn't quite the best. Here is how it should be played.

Quote

If C are 3-3 you have 8 tricks, but you must remove East's exit cards in D to perhaps force him to lead away from the H Q. Duck the D. W wins the J and returns another H.

It is now certain that H are 4-2 else W is helping you establish the H suit. Win the 2nd H. Cash the A of D to remove East's exit card - very important!!

The_hog makes a couple big assumptions here. 1) Hearts are not 3-3, and 2) that clubs are 3-3. I am willing to go ahead and back the hearts are not 3-3 as well. While The_hog's ending worked with 3-3 clubs, it fails miserable with a 4-2 split, so instead of cashing the DIAMOND ACE as he recommends, it is VERY IMPORTANT that you do not cash the DIAMOND ACE immediately upon winning the second heart.

The_hogs ending (shown below) of course wins when clubs are 3-3. And as you will see in a second, can be just as easily reached by not cashing your diamond ACE immediately... (hog's ending and comments in pink)...

Quote

                                        AKx
                                        Jx
                                        void
                                        x  
               xxx                                        xxxx
               void                                       Q9
               K9x
                                    xxx
                                    void
                                    Qxx
              ......... ..........                     void

Play dummy's last C. What does E throw? If he throws a H, play a H setting up your J. If he plays a S, play A K and another S, caring little who wins the last S trick. If E, he can cash a H and then concede a trick to your H knave; if west, he can cash the K of D and then concede a trick to the Q of D.

The correct line from this point is to cash CLUB-ACE, CLUB Queen ending in your hand, in this possible position IF WEST HELD FOUR CLUBS....
                                        AKx
                                        Jxx
                                        void
                                        x  
               xx                                         xxxx
               void                                       Q9
               K9xx                                      x
               T                                         void
                                    xxx
                                    void
                                    AQxx
                                    void

Now, you reach the following position when WEST was 2-2-5-4 or 1-2-6-4. In this ending, it is very important that you still have the diamond ACE. (If clubs are 3-3 as in The_hog's ending, you win know it now. Simply cash your Diamond ACE, play a spade to dummy and follow The_hog's line). But in the ending with WEST having 4 clubs, you simply cash your two top spades and thow WEST in with his club. He is endplayed, and will have to lead a diamond. You win as cheaply as possible and exit a low diamond, ahd WEST is endplayed again.

But once again, the better lines for a problem (rather than the real world unbelievable situation with the CLUB king off sides, is this hand with the CLUB KING onsides).

[the hog]

1) In real life of course the C to the J did not win
2) Assumption that H are not 4-2 is hardly a big one. You are playing an expert who will not help you set up the H suit once he sees dummy. Also H led is totally inconsistent with a MUD lead
2) The bidding tells you that W does not have 6D, and is very unlikely to have a 2254 shape - did not find a bid over a big C
3) The line in the above post fails if W has 3S - he just exits a S rather than play from his DK

[inquiry]

Quote

1) In real life of course the C to the J did not win
2) Assumption that H are not 4-2 is hardly a big one. You are playing an expert who will not help you set up the H suit once he sees dummy. Also H led is totally inconsistent with a MUD lead
2) The bidding tells you that W does not have 6D, and is very unlikely to have a 2254 shape - did not find a bid over a big C
3) The line in the above post fails if W has 3S - he just exits a S rather than play from his DK

Hog, help your self to some coffee, this one might be fairly long....LOL    Here I thought I was paying you compliments ("I liked the hand, found it fun, agreed with the essences of your play with with one exception"), only to find that apparently everything I said appears to have illicited an unexpected response. I also tried to point out that this specific area of the BBO forum where you posted this hand was for beginners/novices and intermediates, and that this hand and our discussion would be way too inappropriate for them. I am sure you and I are about the only people left reading this thread, simply because it is not posted to the interesting hand fourm or expert forum, and that is a shame because it is a very interesting  hand.

Despite that, I am now compelled to make comments about each of your 4 items (yes I see that they only go from 1 to 3, but you used 2 twice). Your analysis on this hand is only slightly flawed, just like your numbering of your reply... ;D  To make it easy to follow, I repeat your comments in yellow, followed by my reply in white.  . .

1) In real life of course the C to the J did not win

Yes, I understood that point. But I was hoping you would help with more good idea post, and the thing about posting a hand as a problem for people to solve is that you want to a) make it the most interesting problem you can, and   make it the most realistic given the bidding. For west to double 2D with a hand like SQxx HT9 DKJ9xx C-xxx is simply not a good idea because it is so illogical. And, the problem really is much, much more interesting, requiring more skill to play, with the CLUB hook winning than losing. I was just pointing this out, because I assure you as interesting as you found the hand with the club hook losing, you should find it 10 times more interesting if the club hook had won. So I was pointing this out.

So my "disagreement" with the real world versus the way I think the problem should be presented is not a big issue, and should not (IMHO) drawn any real comments at all. But I will add this hint for the future, if you wanted to force the CLUB hook losing on the solvers, you should have included that in the problem. In other words, you should have said the you win the HEART ACE, and play a club to the JACK which loses. Back comes a low diamond, plan your play. This is how you should handle such an unusual finding giving the double as the hook losing.

2) Assumption that H are not 4-2 is hardly a big one. You are playing an expert who will not help you set up the H suit once he sees dummy. Also H led is totally inconsistent with a MUD lead

I have no problem with the 4-2 or 5-1 heart split being possible (well, I would have long ago eliminated the possibility of 5-1 by cashing my second heart honor, but you get my point).  I never once disagreed with your view that hearts are not splitting. In fact, my entire line in my original post, and in my second post is also based on the same 4-2 heart split as yours. Did you even read my answers? If you did, I find it amazing you would make this statement in item number 2. Maybe you got mad that I disagreed with you about your choosen line of play, causing you to react this way to the 4-2 heart split assumption I mentioned. IF so, please don't take an alternative answer as a challenge to your cleverness or a personal attack. I simply want to discuss the merits of the bridge hand in a straight forward manner. I really think we are very close to the same answer after the club hook loses. From your reply, it is not even clear you realize that (see number 3 below).

2a) The bidding tells you that W does not have 6D, and is very unlikely to have a 2254 shape - did not find a bid over a big C

I assume this should be item 3, since 2 was the 4-2 split.. so I renumbered it 2a. "The bidding TELLS you that WEST didn't have 6 diamonds? Really, what part of their passing or the 2Dx specifically stated that West is either limited to ONLY 5 diamonds and 3 or fewer clubs? And where did you say that you ever even opened a BIG club? And you didn't give the vulnerability or the state of the match? heck, they might be vul and wouldn't bid on a dare.

No, there is nothing in the problem as stated that provides the slightest clue that Diamonds could not be 5-2, 6-1, or even 7-0. For all we know, North opened a "cute" 1D (precision, can be short) ignoring his weak 5 card heart suit and south raise 2D inverted and forcing, or north opened 1H and south bid 2D and WEST doubled.  

If you are going to pose problems, and I for one you hope you continue to do so, give the entire auction, the vulnerability, and the leader's opening lead conventions.... Especially if as here, you are going to try to argue that the Bidding (which wasn't given) is going to dragged out into your own analysis of the hand.  It is hardly fair to spring on the solvers things like MUD Leads, that was not used or the opponents were not vul and very aggressive bidders when facing strong 1C so they can not have x or y, when you never stated that a forcing club was opened or the vulnerability or even rather it was total points, imps or matchpoints. And clearly if West has a hand like xx  Tx  KJ9xx  9xxx do you really want him bidding, especially if he was vul? But even given all you now say about the auction,  your line is still clearly inferior, see below.

Along the same vein, would it be fair in the solution to now say, for instance, that the lead of a TEN promses a broken sequence like QT9x, KT9x or AT9x? I even considered how to play if WEST held the HEART QT9x before I choose my line. Springing such agreements (mud or sequence leads) would be similar to springing new features of the auction. Your arguments here seem to have lapsed from a cold clinical analysis of the hand into a "I can see all four hands" so this it the winning line and then grasping for reasons to support that in highsight.

3) The line in the above post fails if W has 3S -he just exits a S rather than play from his DK

Ok. Arguments against 1, 2, and 2a were just general comments. Against 1) - in problems, real world is not important, what makes the best problem is what makes it interesting. 2) - I agree with you, and agreed with you both of my earlier post, so what was your point? 2a) - this is non-sense, west CAN have 6 Diamonds or WEST can have 5Diamonds and 4 clubs. But now to the meat of the matter. Once again, reading your comments suggest to me that you either didn't study my answer, or simply are blinded by your own solution that you failed to even look at mine. So let's examine the two ending in question, using both your line and mine Here is the first endting in which to compare the two lines.
          S-AKx
          H-J7x
          D-void
          C-A8x
S-xx               S-xxxx
H-void          H-Q8
D-K9xx          D-x
C-9xx           C-x
         S-xxx
         H-void
         D-AQ8x
         C-Qx

Your play is DIAMOND ACE then run clubs. You will be held to 8 tricks WHEN west has 4 clubs as in this ending. This has nothing to do with bidding and what -- he can and can't have on the bidding -- that wasn't given. It is simply a fact.  However, if you start with CLUB to the ACE, and club back to the QUEEN, the ending is clear. West has 5D for the silly double, 4 clubs by count, 2 hearts so far, by count, so at most 2 spade. Play two rounds of spades, and throw WEST in with the club. QED. This line work when your line didn't work.

Now let's change the hand to the one where your line did work.
        S-AKx
        H-J7x
        D-void
        C-A8x
S-xxx                S-xxxx
H-void               H-Q8
D-K9xx         D-x
C-9x                C-xx
        S-xxx
        H-void
        D-AQ8x
        C-Qx

Your line, again, was cash Diamond ACE then run clubs. My line, play club to ACE and club back to Queen. On my line, when  both opponents follow to three round of clubs, I know that clubs, are 3-3. Nothing could be simplier. NOW I cash the DIAMOND ACE when I know for sure that clubs are 3-3. Then I lead a spade to the ACE, and cash the thirteenth CLUB, cash the last top spade and exit a spade. When I exit this spade, it is exactly at the same three card ending that you reached on your line when you exited a SPADE. And I reached this ending by a careful transposition of the line of play to protect against the 4-2 club split without giving up on the 3-3 club fit. In otherwords, your line worked when WEST was 3-2-5-3, but failed when WEST was 2-2-5-4. My line worked when WEST had EITHER of those distributions. Your comment about 3 SPADES with WEST my line fails points out your blind spot here, for if west has 3 clubs and 3 spades, I get right back to your line. I responded to the hand because it was very interesting and responeded again because you posted an interesting but slightly incorrect solution.  

Now back to your comment 3? What does it mean that my line fails if spades are 3-3? I used a corrected version of your line. Your comment is just plain silly. Two chances are better than one, something any hideous hog would know.  I suspect if you sit down and look over the position, you will be forced to admit that a line that makes if CLUBS are 3-3 or 4-2 is superior to a line that makes only if clubs are 3-3.

Ben

[Yzerman]

Inquiry asked to me how I would play this hand if club hook wins;

AK7
J7652
T
AJ83

632
AK
AQ842
Q62

**************************************

Cash AK of hearts (tricks 1 and 2) and immediately play club to the Jack;

First Scenario (If club hook wins).  Here are the permutations;

* These assume hearts 4/2 and diamonds 5/2 *

Cash the Ace of clubs

(a) if king falls I exit a small spade and this is hand thus far;

LHO=4252, RHO=3424

If RHO win he must exit diamond for a chance to defeat (club or spade exit allow easy end play in D suit, cashing HQ gives me 10 tricks and  to have a chance) so I duck this diamond.  Best LHO can do is exit spade, at this point I cash two high spades in dummy, play club to hand and exit the DQ.  LHO is end played into giving me my 9th trick (2S, 2H, 3C, 2D).

( if CK does not appear, I exit club.  Here are the permutations when LHO has Kxx or Kxxx clubs;

LHO=2254, 3253

When LHO is 2254 and assuming they cash two high clubs the must exit spade.  Win the spade, cash a second spade and pass the 10 of diamonds.  LHO will be enplayed into giving you 3 diamonds tricks, win second diamond and exit low diamond (2S, 2H, 3D, 3C).

When LHO is 3253 I am up to 8 tricks and need a 9th (2S, 2H, 1D, 3C).  LHO does best by exiting spade, if the exit is SQ then I duck otherwise I win the trick (if SQ exit duck cash black winners and pass diamond).  While in dummy I cash the 13th club and RHO must discard he MUST discard a spade (H discard obviously wrong and D discard allows you to win first D by RHO for they have no more D exits).  After 13th club and spade discard by LHO I cash high spade and exit spade.  If LHO wins trick he is end played in diamond suit, if RHO win he can cash high heart and must exit diamond which I duck and LHO end played in to giving me a second diamond.  In all of these cases I end up with 2S, 2H, 2D, and 3C.

* Removing the assumptions that LHO has 2 hearts and 5 diamonds (known diamond length, 5 +), does this line work on other distributions.  I will analyze these distributions later.

LHO=1453, 1354, 3262, 2263, 2362