[skilldave]

What's the best structure after a 2C opener do you think? (i.e only one strong bid available). e.g. is kokish and all its continuations worth the bother learning etc. At present, using a structure where after 2C 2D pretty much a relay, and after that 3C/3D/3H/3S 8 playing trick style hand, and 2H after 2D asks pt to bid 2S, and then suit bids gf style hands. Are there better methods which could be used?

[ArcLight]

There is also a system where:
2♦ = something, non bust
2♥ = bust

Its more fully described in one of Marty Bergens books or Mike Lawrences CONVENTIONS CD.


I saw the Kokish system on his Modern American Bidding (2/1) CD, and I didn't like it. He is obviously very highly regarded so I wouldn't dismiss his ideas lightly. But it may be difficult to find a pard willing to use his systems.

[Gerben42]

I prefer a variation of the system ArcLight suggested: Chris Ryall's ParadoX responses

Basically, 2♦ is a non-bust hand, 2♥ is bust. 2♠ is a bust but with a trick for ♥!
Then 2NT up to 3♥ are transfers to a good 6-card suit, and 3♠ shows a solid suit.

After 2♣ - 2♦:

responder bids 2M naturally,
3♣ with ♣ (then 3♦ asks for 4-card major)
3♦ with ♦ without 4-card M
3M with ♦ + 4-card M

For those not suffering stringent system restrictions: This system also goes well with Trebuchet (2♣ is strong or weak in ♦) as is described on My Homepage - subsection 2 Clubs opening.

[Codo]

Surely it depe4nds on your opening first. We play that 2 ♣ is a strong NT or at least a semi-forcing in a major or any kind of GF.
In this context, I loved this follow up:
2 ♣ 2 ♦ Game forcing relay
2 ♥ to play opps. a semiforcing in Heart 0-0.5 tricks
2 ♠ to play opps. a SF in spade, but with values for 4 Heart
2 Nt to 3 ♥ Transfer with 6 card suit with two tops

The advantages:
-No need to jump around after 2 ♦ to show a gameforce
-easy rebids in the other situations.
-always rightsiding the contract after a strong opening besides the case, where ou have a semiforcing in Heart and pd not tricks, or in spade and pd does not like spades.

Later bidding after
2 ♣ -2♦

2 ♥/♠ at least Semiforcing in that suit 3 major shows fit, rest natural
2 NT The nT range you prefer, your normal system
3 ♣♦ GF in this minor

Rest to be discussed.

Hmmm Gerben was quicker... but with the same good taste

[kenrexford]

For what it is worth, I have had some success with the following:

2D = GF, waiting
2H then Ki\okish, but partner can decline transfer by bidding the stiff from a 4441
2H = Double Neg
2S = Minor positive
2NT asks
3min = one-suited minor positive (smolen-style if desired)
3MAJ = tw-suited minor positive, bidding stiff
2NT = uber-balanced with four kings
3C = heart positive
3D = spade positive
3M = "preemptive"

[jdonn]

I really dislike the systems where 2♥ is a bust. For one thing it takes away Kokish on the hands where you really need it, those where responder is weak. For another it wrongsides a major rather than a minor. For another it makes opener waste a level when he has hearts, so if he has a two suited hand with hearts he is absolutely screwed. Nothing but a bunch of negatives in my view. Here is what I play in my current most regular partnership

2♦: Negative but doesn't have to be a total bust, should be 0-1 controls. Now you can use Kokish, and double negatives over higher suit bids.
2♥: Artificial positive and waiting, 2+ controls. Now opener can rebid 2NT on ALL balanced hands, unlike the systems where 2♥ is a bust, so you can always get your systems in. And on the hands where opener has hearts at least responder has values to cover the auction getting high quickly.
2♠ and higher: Just positive responses showing decent suits, 2NT as a positive in hearts is fine, or 2♠ showing hearts and 2NT showing spades, I have no strong opinion on how to play those.

Frankly, I would rather have a forced 2♦ response on 100% of responding hands than play the 2♥ as a bust systems. My goal is to leave opener as much room as possible for his rebid since no shape is known yet.

[ArcLight]

Just out of curiousity, how commonly used are the Kokish replied to 2♣?
Do many experts (real ones, not self assed BBO experts) use them?

I don't claim to be a theorist, but it seems that the step response/Kokish is less valuable than knowing about a suit or staying out of pards way so he can describe his hand. Shape is more important than knowing pard has an Ace or 2 kings, at least in the beginning.

[joshs]

jdonn, on Apr 11 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

I really dislike the systems where 2♥ is a bust. For one thing it takes away Kokish on the hands where you really need it, those where responder is weak. For another it wrongsides a major rather than a minor. For another it makes opener waste a level when he has hearts, so if he has a two suited hand with hearts he is absolutely screwed. Nothing but a bunch of negatives in my view. Here is what I play in my current most regular partnership

2♦: Negative but doesn't have to be a total bust, should be 0-1 controls. Now you can use Kokish, and double negatives over higher suit bids.
2♥: Artificial positive and waiting, 2+ controls. Now opener can rebid 2NT on ALL balanced hands, unlike the systems where 2♥ is a bust, so you can always get your systems in. And on the hands where opener has hearts at least responder has values to cover the auction getting high quickly.
2♠ and higher: Just positive responses showing decent suits, 2NT as a positive in hearts is fine, or 2♠ showing hearts and 2NT showing spades, I have no strong opinion on how to play those.

Frankly, I would rather have a forced 2♦ response on 100% of responding hands than play the 2♥ as a bust systems. My goal is to leave opener as much room as possible for his rebid since no shape is known yet.

I agree with Josh. Don't you hate having a 4 or 5 card major and a 2 count after 2C-2H-3N?

I generally play over 2C:
2D negative, but about 0-7ish
2H scattered positive, no great suit, 8+ or a good 7
2S Natural, decent suit, positive
2N Hearts, Pos
3m Great suit, positive
But my 3M bids vary with partnership (My preference is a broken 6/7 card suit, and about 5-7 HCP: Kxxxxx and a side K would be typical. Its a hand that is slammish opposite a primary fit, probably should be trumps opposite Hx, and should quit while its ahead opposite a stiff)

I also play 2C-Positive as Forcing to at least 4N. That way you can comfortably set trumps in auctions like:
2C-2H-2S-2N-3H-4H

More recomended conventional sequence:
Play: 2C-2H(scattered positive)-3S as 4S, 5+H
and 2C-2D-3M as 4M, 5+D

[rbforster]

joshs, on Apr 11 2006, 12:51 PM, said:

Don't you hate having a 4 or 5 card major and a 2 count after 2C-2H-3N?

You might play transfers to the majors over 3NT there, which should get in the 5 card suits. Not sure about the best use for 4C by a bust hand.

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I generally play over 2C:
2D negative, but about 0-7ish
2H scattered positive, no great suit, 8+ or a good 7
2S Natural, decent suit, positive
2N Hearts, Pos

You might benefit from switching 2H and 2S responses, which are then basically suggesting opener complete the transfer:
2H - spade positive, good suit
2S - balanced positive

No need to wrongside the spade suit.

[Stephen Tu]

I also like to play like the Joshses with the 2H positive response. This is what Marshall Miles advocates in several of his books & this Bridge World article.

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You might benefit from switching 2H and 2S responses, which are then basically suggesting opener complete the transfer:
2H - spade positive, good suit
2S - balanced positive

No need to wrongside the spade suit.

I don't like this. For one thing, you are still wrongsiding if opener has the spades opposite the balanced hand. For another, now opener has to start describing his spade hands at the 3 level. With the original way, at least half of opener's major suit hands aren't preempted by the more frequent bal pos response. If you are worried about siding, then use 2h=pos, 2s=h, 2nt=s.

[inquiry]

I follow Chris Ryal's suggestion too... with paradox 2♥ and 2♠ responses. I use openers 2NT rebids after 2♣ to show three suiters, I use 2♦ opening bid to include strong 2C-2x-2NT type hands (the kokish ones), I use 2♦ opening bid also for acol two in a minor, but 2♣ can include acol 2 in a major. Finally, I remove two suiters from 2♣ opening bid all together, and use 4♣/4♦ for some acolish 2 bids in a major but with less than 5 controls.

So my 2♣ opening bids are either, One suiters, Balanced, or semi-balanced. One suiter with minor is game force, balanced is game force, semi-balanced is very near game force, one suiter in major or semi-balanced with major is forcing only to 2♥ (if responder bids 2♥) or 2♠ (if partner bids 2♥ or 2♠, otherwise forcing to at least 3♥ (if partner bids 2♦ (and game force if responder bids anything other than 2NT over openers 2M rebid).

[civill]

If 2♣ has not been changed strong open value,2♦ waiting,and natural 2M/2NT/3m is the simplest.



sorry,"2♦ waiting" should be "weak 2♦"

This post has been edited by civill: 2006-April-12, 20:27

[Codo]

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I really dislike the systems where 2♥ is a bust. For one thing it takes away Kokish on the hands where you really need it, those where responder is weak.

No, you don´t need it often. For which hand?

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For another it wrongsides a major rather than a minor.

In the rare cases, where you have a forcing in Heart. But this happens in your way too.

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For another it makes opener waste a level when he has hearts, so if he has a two suited hand with hearts he is absolutely screwed.

Clear wrong. You are able to play 2 Heart/Spade opposite the 0-1 tricks hand. And if you have a two-suited hand, you have always problems to bid them after a 2 Club opening, in any system.

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Nothing but a bunch of negatives in my view. Here is what I play in my current most regular partnership

2♦: Negative but doesn't have to be a total bust, should be 0-1 controls. Now you can use Kokish, and double negatives over higher suit bids.

Unluckily, pd has to jump to show a GF..

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2♥: Artificial positive and waiting, 2+ controls. Now opener can rebid 2NT on ALL balanced hands, unlike the systems where 2♥ is a bust, so you can always get your systems in.

This is no advantage, because opposite a positve hand, you can use 2 NT like we do. But this time, you wrongside the contract, if opener happens to have Hearts. I believe, that it is much more problematic to play 4 Heart with a hand with 1-2 tricks opps. a strong dummy, compared with 2 Heart if you have zero tricks opps. a semi forcing in Heart

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And on the hands where opener has hearts at least responder has values to cover the auction getting high quickly.
2♠ and higher: Just positive responses showing decent suits,
2NT as a positive in hearts is fine, or 2♠ showing hearts and 2NT showing spades, I have no strong opinion on how to play those
Frankly, I would rather have a forced 2♦ response on 100% of responding hands than play the 2♥ as a bust systems. My goal is to leave opener as much room as possible for his rebid since no shape is known yet.

If you play it this way, you must start with a jump after pds 2 ♦ to show a GF hand. This is wasting space, not saving it. Esp. with the ttwosuiter, this must be horrible.

Of course, there is no perfect system, but I believe, that 2 ♦ as positive does gain a lot, if responder does have a "decent" hand" with 1.5 or more tricks. The strong oponer does not need to jump, he can name NT or a major.
If responder has real nothing, there are small disadvatages.

But what do you think will happen more often? 26 vs. zero points or 20 vs. 6?

[FrancesHinden]

My only strong belief is that it is best to keep the 2♣ opener as being game forcing (except possibly the one sequence 2C - negative - 2NT and even then I'm not convinced). I think the minor advantages of allowing you to open 2C (rather than 1 suit) and then stop out of game are not worth it compared to the advantages of being absolutely game forced.

Once you are absolutely game forced I don't feel very strongly about system. In my two most regular partnerships one plays a Kokish 2H rebid and the other doesn't. The 2H rebid has both advantages and disadvantages and it's not an obvious overall winner (or indeed loser).

There are plenty of fancy structures around, but bear in mind they don't come up very often and are very expensive if forgotten.

[jdonn]

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I really dislike the systems where 2♥ is a bust. For one thing it takes away Kokish on the hands where you really need it, those where responder is weak.

No, you don´t need it often. For which hand?

Any hand with any 4 or 5 card majors? Why is that difficult to understand? When the auction goes 2♣ 2♥(bust) 3NT then responder has no room to use any stayman or transfers, without risking 4NT or higher anyway.

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For another it makes opener waste a level when he has hearts, so if he has a two suited hand with hearts he is absolutely screwed.

Clear wrong. You are able to play 2 Heart/Spade opposite the 0-1 tricks hand. And if you have a two-suited hand, you have always problems to bid them after a 2 Club opening, in any system.

Well for one thing I believe you are referring to the system you posted where 2♥ and 2♠ are both very weak hands, not the standard 2♥ bust system. But in any case that is no help to opener when he is 5-4 or 5-5. Should he pass 2♥ and play the 5-1 instead of what may be the 5-5 in a minor? And all these references you keep making to opener being forced to jump to show a game forcing hand simply aren't true. 2♣ 2♦ 2♥/♠ the way I'm suggesting it are forcing bids. Tailoring your system to stop in 2 of a major after a 2♣ opening is such a misrepresentation of priorities as to boggle the mind.

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2♦: Negative but doesn't have to be a total bust, should be 0-1 controls. Now you can use Kokish, and double negatives over higher suit bids.

Unluckily, pd has to jump to show a GF..

No he doesn't! Are you having fun making up systems for me?

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2♥: Artificial positive and waiting, 2+ controls. Now opener can rebid 2NT on ALL balanced hands, unlike the systems where 2♥ is a bust, so you can always get your systems in.

This is no advantage, because opposite a positve hand, you can use 2 NT like we do. But this time, you wrongside the contract, if opener happens to have Hearts. I believe, that it is much more problematic to play 4 Heart with a hand with 1-2 tricks opps. a strong dummy, compared with 2 Heart if you have zero tricks opps. a semi forcing in Heart.

You still don't understand. By playing 2♦ as some sort of negative and 2♥ as value showing, opener can ultimately rebid 2NT on 100% of his balanced hands (by going through the 2♥ Kokish relay if need be). By playing 2♦ as game forcing and 2♥ as a bust, opener will have to rebid 3NT on his game forcing balanced hands, taking up all your room to look for major suit fits. This is what you call 'no advantage'?

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And on the hands where opener has hearts at least responder has values to cover the auction getting high quickly.
2♠ and higher: Just positive responses showing decent suits,
2NT as a positive in hearts is fine, or 2♠ showing hearts and 2NT showing spades, I have no strong opinion on how to play those
Frankly, I would rather have a forced 2♦ response on 100% of responding hands than play the 2♥ as a bust systems. My goal is to leave opener as much room as possible for his rebid since no shape is known yet.

If you play it this way, you must start with a jump after pds 2 ♦ to show a GF hand. This is wasting space, not saving it. Esp. with the ttwosuiter, this must be horrible.

No he doesn't, a thousand times over. 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ is a forcing bid no matter what 2♦ was.

[mikestar]

Chris Ryall's Paradox responses are IMO the best respones to 2♣ in the system context where they are given--2♣ is unbalanced, balanced powerhouses go thru 2♦ multi.

Unfortunately, I play f2f in North America and the Multi is illegal on the GCC. With the Multi unavailable, most of us are not willing to use 2♦ as strong only in order to make Chris' 2♣ structure work--though it is so good our reluctance may be an error.

In any case, 2♣-whatever negative-3NT as a balanced 25 count is horrible: reponder has no room to look for a suit, as he will get above game if he doesn't find one. Kokish is extremly valuable for these hands--but to use it when you need it, your negative resonse must be 2♦. When responder has enough points for game opposite a balanced 23, there is no need to immediatlely distinguish the 25+ balanced hands--the need arises when reponder is broke and would pass the 2NT rebid.

[awm]

I personally don't have a strong opinion about this, as I play strong ♣ or ♦ in many of my partnerships.

However, I'm curious as to why there's been virtually no mention of the "old-fashioned" style using 2♦ as waiting and then a subsequent second-negative. It seems like this approach can deal with many of the issues people have been discussing, for example:

(1) Opener normally gets to bid his hearts at the two-level, regardless of whether partner has garbage or a balanced game force. This helps a lot when opener has a two-suiter with a primary major. We can also generally get out in 3M after a negative response.

(2) Opener has Kokish available virtually always, unless responder has a suited positive.

(3) You don't wrong-side heart contracts with any particular frequency.

[Al_U_Card]

I guess a natural, information based approach is definitely out? Since nowadays, opps are in your face on anything, what about (I am getting ready to duck and cover...)

CaSH (Controls and Shape)

2D =0-1 control any distribution
2H/S = 5+ cards in the suit with 2 controls in the hand
2NT = 4432 or 4333 with 2 controls in the hand
3C = a five card minor with 2 controls in the hand
3D = a five card minor with 3 controls in the hand
3H = 5+ cards in the suit with 3+ controls in the hand etc.

I know all about the use of space and right-siding stuff, but damn its easy to use, easy to remember and when you are talking about 2 or more controls, having the hand shape info is really useful too as you go to slam.

[mikeh]

I use a fairly simple method:

2♦ the usual positive response: at least a K or an Ace, usually denies a positive suit response (2/3 top honours, 5+ length) but may have a minimum positive suit response or any complex hand

2♥ no ace or king

2♠ a minor positive: opener can bid his own major or bid 2N to ask for the minor: we flip the responses: 3♣ shows ♦, 3♦ shows ♣. A minor positive will be based on a decent suit (2/3 top honours, 5+ length, and no side 4 major and, if the suit is KQxxx or AQxxx, a little on the side... usually not a lot unless responder is slam-force. Thus the minor positive denies strong slam interest while promising more than KQxxx or AQxxx and out.

2N is a major positive, with the same constraints as the minor positive. Opener can bid 3♣ to ask responder to transfer into his major.

3 level suit responses show 6+ length in a suit that can play for one-loser opposite a stiff.

3N is a solid 7+ suit... any suit. Opener will usually know which it is: it would be rare for opener to have 0 hcp in 2 suits

This method requires responder to usually respond 2♦ with values and 2♥ without.

There are problems with the 2♥ response, as others have indicated. We play that a 3♥ rebid by opener is forcing: 2♣ forces to 2N, 3♠ or 4 of any other suit. Readers will know by now that I rarely open 2♣ on 2 or 3 suited hands so this is not as much of a problem as it may be for others. And having no kokish relay (which I use over 2♦) can be a problem.

However, reversing the 2♦ and 2♥ responses is, in my view, misguided if the concern is the kokish relay.

I strongly disagree that the relay is needed more often after a negative response than after a positive one.

It is essential, after 2♣ - (positive wait) for opener to limit his balanced notrump hands. Responder should ordinarily become captain in auctions that begin this way.

Quantitative valuation becomes very difficult in this scenario, where slam/game decisions are involved without the kokish relay.

The chances of missing a slam with balanced hand opp balanced hand after an immediate negative are virtually zero... the slam will not be there.

The worst that will happen to me after my 2♣-2♥ is that opener may jump to a no-play 3N on 25 hcp or that we may play 3N on such an auction while missing an 8 or 9 card major fit. I am not trivializing that cost, but experience suggests it is low-frequency, if for no other reason than that I very, very rarely pick up a balanced 25+ hand

If such hands are common for you, then by all means design your bidding system around them, and remind me not to play you for money

[joshs]

awm, on Apr 12 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

I personally don't have a strong opinion about this, as I play strong ♣ or ♦ in many of my partnerships.

However, I'm curious as to why there's been virtually no mention of the "old-fashioned" style using 2♦ as waiting and then a subsequent second-negative. It seems like this approach can deal with many of the issues people have been discussing, for example:

(1) Opener normally gets to bid his hearts at the two-level, regardless of whether partner has garbage or a balanced game force. This helps a lot when opener has a two-suiter with a primary major. We can also generally get out in 3M after a negative response.

(2) Opener has Kokish available virtually always, unless responder has a suited positive.

(3) You don't wrong-side heart contracts with any particular frequency.

Its playable but not ideal.

1. the 2D bid carries a lot of ground and sometimes you want to differentiate a useful 7 count from a useful 4 count, and its hard to do, when you might also have a useful 10 count.
2. There is exactly 1 xx negative auction playing kokish:
2C-2D-2S-3C

Over 2C-2D-2H 2S is semi-forced (I personally think that with 4-6ish responder should bid a 6 card minor or 2N with both minors here instead of 2S)
Over 2C-2D-3C-3D is what you bid if you want to find out if opener has a 4 card major on the side, so doesn't really have the double negative connotation.

But you can usually sort things out after the 2D bid:

Suppose you have:
a. xx Jxxx Qxxx Qxxx or
b. xx Jxxx Axxx xxx or instead
c. Qx Jxxx Axxx xxx or
d. Qx Jxxx Axxx Kxx or
e. Kx KQxx xxxx xxx
f. xx KQxx xxxx xxx
g. xx Jxx QTxx Kxxx
h. Qx Jxx KTxx Kxxx


2C-2D-2S-2N-3H-?
a. 4H (2 queens is not a double negative)
b. 4D
c. 4D and try again
d. 4D and bid keycard next
e. 5H (great trumps, no control in the minors, extras). But this uses up a lot of space.
f. A problem hand. You might need to fake a cue bid (or bid a last train 4D)
g. 3N
h. 3S or 4N