[david_c]

The search continues for ways to bid 5♣4M hands in Precision (or Polish Club, for that matter). Of course, there's never going to be a truly satisfactory solution, but still, I like to ponder these things from time to time ...

I'm currently looking at 1=4=3=5 hands in particular, which I rate as being the most difficult to handle. It seems to be a good idea to be very conservative with this shape, passing most hands with 11 or 12 HCPs. The good thing about passing is that you are often presented with an easy way back into the auction later, usually with a takeout double - but you can still choose to keep out if the opponents have found a misfit.

Anyway, having been convinced that it's a good idea to be conservative with this shape, I've been wondering about taking this further and systemically passing hands with up to 14 HCP, in order to remove them from the limited opening bids completely. I wouldn't be expecting this to gain bundles of IMPs when it comes up, but neither is it a big loser:

If partner opens the bidding in 3rd or 4th seat, then life is wonderful. All you need is some specific response to show the (12)13-14 1=4=3=5 hand. Jump responses by a passed hand aren't generally used much, so it's fine giving up 3♣ (say) to show this particular hand type. I think of this as being an "impossible pass", as it's rather like Precision's "impossible negative". Because the hand you've shown is so specific, it's easy for partner to decide the contract - so much easier than if you'd opened a Precision 2♣. You're probably also gaining compared to pairs playing a natural system, though not by much.

If the opponents open the bidding then you may have lost a tempo. On the other hand, if you are able to come in on the next round with a double then this is a very descriptive call, and partner can have fun with LOTT. In general, when it's the opponents' hand you will wish you had opened a Precision 2♣, but if you compare instead to a natural system you're not losing very much at all.

If the hand is passed out then you're usually not doing well. It's fairly rare that you're missing a game, but missing out on part scores is a real problem. But a passout is unlikely: even if you've passed with 14HCP, someone else will have an opening bid about 80% of the time. The shortage in spades helps here.

OK, so tell me, am I insane? Any comments welcome.

[junyi_zhu]

david_c, on Oct 19 2005, 12:08 AM, said:

The search continues for ways to bid 5♣4M hands in Precision (or Polish Club, for that matter). Of course, there's never going to be a truly satisfactory solution, but still, I like to ponder these things from time to time ...

I'm currently looking at 1=4=3=5 hands in particular, which I rate as being the most difficult to handle. It seems to be a good idea to be very conservative with this shape, passing most hands with 11 or 12 HCPs. The good thing about passing is that you are often presented with an easy way back into the auction later, usually with a takeout double - but you can still choose to keep out if the opponents have found a misfit.

Anyway, having been convinced that it's a good idea to be conservative with this shape, I've been wondering about taking this further and systemically passing hands with up to 14 HCP, in order to remove them from the limited opening bids completely. I wouldn't be expecting this to gain bundles of IMPs when it comes up, but neither is it a big loser:

If partner opens the bidding in 3rd or 4th seat, then life is wonderful. All you need is some specific response to show the (12)13-14 1=4=3=5 hand. Jump responses by a passed hand aren't generally used much, so it's fine giving up 3♣ (say) to show this particular hand type. I think of this as being an "impossible pass", as it's rather like Precision's "impossible negative". Because the hand you've shown is so specific, it's easy for partner to decide the contract - so much easier than if you'd opened a Precision 2♣. You're probably also gaining compared to pairs playing a natural system, though not by much.

If the opponents open the bidding then you may have lost a tempo. On the other hand, if you are able to come in on the next round with a double then this is a very descriptive call, and partner can have fun with LOTT. In general, when it's the opponents' hand you will wish you had opened a Precision 2♣, but if you compare instead to a natural system you're not losing very much at all.

If the hand is passed out then you're usually not doing well. It's fairly rare that you're missing a game, but missing out on part scores is a real problem. But a passout is unlikely: even if you've passed with 14HCP, someone else will have an opening bid about 80% of the time. The shortage in spades helps here.

OK, so tell me, am I insane? Any comments welcome.

I think a canape style is best for strong C system. In that treatment, you can open 1H easilly. So 2C opening can be one suiter only.

[luke warm]

i, of course, agree (with the canape stuff)... i use 2c for something else tho.. aside from that, i don't think you're crazy at all... there's a certain symentry to it

[pclayton]

Cheesy hands with a rebid problem like 1=4=3=5 are tough in any system, even Precision.

If the hand is approriate playing strength, open it 1♦ (with weak clubs) or 2♣ with average clubs or better. I suppose if the hearts were stellar I'd mix a diamond in with my hearts and open it with 1♥.

I might pass if its a horrible 12 count, but open it otherwise. Certainly 10's and 11's can be thrown in if not suitable, whereby I might open the hand if my hearts and clubs were switched, especially in a strong club context. I think passing a 14 count is a little silly.

I don't see the need to get cute with special bids opposite 3rd hand openings. Its such a specific pattern, why would you assign a call to it?

[Flame]

tysen2k(i think its him) already come up with similar idea. He is designing a system that pass balance hands up to 15 or 16 hcp. I liked it then and like it now.

[awm]

Passing these hands is part of the Phantom Club system. This system has many advantages, including being a lot of fun to play and being simpler than standard bidding. My experience playing Phantom has been that passing hands with primary clubs usually scores well. Even when the hand passes out, you do not win too many competitive partscore battles when your fit is in clubs and theirs is in some other suit. Quite often the passout turns a small minus into a zero. If partner is systemically expected to open light you lose even less... sure maybe I passed a 13-count but if partner opens almost all 8s we're not that likely to pass out a board where we have the cards.

For those curious, Phantom Club is basically: open with whatever you would bid if RHO had opened the bidding with a natural 1♣. Thus 1♦-1♠ are "normal" overcalls, and so forth. The 1♣ opening says "I would have doubled if they opened 1♣" and so shows either a strong hand or an opening-range hand with takeout shape. Follow-ups to openings are much the same as they would be to overcalls (i.e. 1♠-P-2♣ is limit+ raise, or transfer to diams if you prefer transfer advances of overcalls, etc). Typically the 1NT opening is played as 11-14 (instead of the common 15-18 for a notrump overcall) because otherwise these hands are tough to bid. You can modify the methods to match whatever you play over natural club (i.e. overcall structure, top and bottom cues, raptor, etc). Obviously some parts of the system may not be theoretically optimal, but it has the advantage of being very simple (you don't need reams of constructive bidding notes, just the competitive part of what you'd need anyway), very aggressive (most people overcall way more aggressive than they open), and allowing a lot of room for judgement (many hand patterns qualify for three or more openings depending on location of values; this is atypical among modern systems where given pattern and strength there is often little to no choice of opening, Moscito being perhaps an extreme example of this).

[Elianna]

A little more in depth notes on Phantom Club may be found at http://www.math.unl....pin/phantom.txt

These notes were done by Adam, they're just on my (very old and likely soon deleted) web page.

[kfgauss]

Elianna, on Oct 19 2005, 05:24 AM, said:

A little more in depth notes on Phantom Club may be found at http://www.math.unl....pin/phantom.txt

These notes were done by Adam, they're just on my (very old and likely soon deleted) web page.

Do you really go all out and play that e.g. 1D (1S) 2C is the cuebid and 1D (1S) 2S is natural (or whatever you play this as in the auction (1C) 1D (1S) 2S)?

I guess now that I've mentioned it, how do people play (1C) 1D (1S) 2C vs (1C) 1D (1S) 2S generally?

Andy

[awm]

Yes, we play the same as (1♣)-1♦-(1♠)-2♣/♠. For us (and I think this is the default agreement) these are both raises, with 2♣ being typically three cards and 2♠ being four. Of course it might make sense to play transfer advances, or to have one or both bids be natural (I'd rather have a 2♣ natural than a 2♠ natural in this auction personally), or to use double as some sort of raise.

Again, the point of Phantom Club is to be simple and fun. I make no claims that any sequence is the "best" way to play it, but it's actually quite effective and there's not much to remember.

[Free]

Aren't you playing a HUM if you pass hands up to 14HCP and open light at 1-level? Because 'an opening bid at 1-level can be weaker than pass' is one of the characteristics of a yellow system...

[david_c]

awm, on Oct 19 2005, 04:27 AM, said:

My experience playing Phantom has been that passing hands with primary clubs usually scores well. Even when the hand passes out, you do not win too many competitive partscore battles when your fit is in clubs and theirs is in some other suit.

I don't think I would claim it's quite as good as that! If passing hands with primary clubs was a winner compared to opening a natural 1♣ then everybody would be doing it. It seems to me that when the hand gets passed out we do badly nearly every time: it's true that often our fit is in clubs and the opponents can outbid us if we open, but their suits are not breaking well and they would usually end up going off. So we score zero instead of +100 or something. Not that this is a particularly terrible situation, considering that this sort of passout only happens once in every 2000 hands or so.

Actually I did play Phantom Club once, and, yes, it was fun Though I seem to remember I was dealt more than my fair share of clubs that day.

Flame said:

tysen2k(i think its him) already come up with similar idea. He is designing a system that pass balance hands up to 15 or 16 hcp. I liked it then and like it now.

That's a bit different: I much prefer passing unbalanced hands than balanced ones. If you pass with a balanced hand and opponents open then you're often committed to passing throughout. But if you pass with 5♣4M then you nearly always have a safe, descriptive way to get back into the auction. (And the times when it's not safe to come in, it's usually because the opponents have stumbled into a misfit and you're better off passing.)

Free said:

Aren't you playing a HUM if you pass hands up to 14HCP and open light at 1-level? Because 'an opening bid at 1-level can be weaker than pass' is one of the characteristics of a yellow system... 

I don't think so - there are plenty of systems (K-S?) where 1m is significantly sounder than 1M. Anyway, who cares?

[tysen2k]

Free, on Oct 19 2005, 01:30 AM, said:

Aren't you playing a HUM if you pass hands up to 14HCP and open light at 1-level?  Because 'an opening bid at 1-level can be weaker than pass' is one of the characteristics of a yellow system... 

I'm not sure and this seems like a strange definition anyway. Who dictates what "strength" means? If I pass a balanced hand of 12 HCP and open an unbalanced one with 11 HCP, do I have an unusual system? I don't think so.

I think in the ACBL you're okay as long as:

• Your 1-bids have at least 8 HCP
  
• Your "opening pass" is not forcing

The Shape System that I'm working on now that Flame mentioned above has an opening pass defined as: 0-16 balanced, 0-10 any 4441, 0-3 any. As far as I can tell, it's GCC legal. I just can say that I'm very conservative when it comes to balanced hands.

Tysen

[tysen2k]

david_c, on Oct 19 2005, 07:33 AM, said:

I much prefer passing unbalanced hands than balanced ones. If you pass with a balanced hand and opponents open then you're often committed to passing throughout.

In that case, it might be a good idea to design a system where you pass with constructive hands that have spades. That might not be too bad of an idea since those are the easiest hands to "re-enter" the auction with. You could call it the "Silent Spade" system. Then 1♠ could be something else... Hmmm...

Tysen